If TWAW, why do we need separate spaces for women?

Spot on.

It also fundamentally posits that the gender identity based needs of a biological male always, in every situation, without exception, are unconditionally more important than any need of any female. And that the female needs must be dismissed, belittled, unmet, and if need be females who won't shut up about them be excluded and punished, to achieve this.

While trying to say that binary sex doesn't exist.

Spot the male supremacism in this.

If TWAW… they aren’t women.

why do we need separate spaces for women? … for privacy, dignity and safety.

Just that really. I'd genuinely like to hear about this from people who believe that TWAW.

My observation is that people who say they believe that TWAW generally also say that TW should be entitled to use spaces / services for women and be included in women’s sporting events.

Those who say they believe that TWAW but don’t think TW should be included in spaces / sports are obviously kidding themselves (or lying) that they believe TWAactuallyW.

The logical conclusion of the gender argument is that women and men shouldn’t be segregated. They go on about how you can’t tell someone’s sex just by looking , in fact sex isn’t even a binary. Sex is unknowable, changeable, and vague. As for gender, you can’t even tell someone’s gender by appearance because gender presentation has nothing to do with gender identity. So the sole determining difference between men and women is an invisible, private mental state that has no outward manifestation.

If bodies, behaviour and physical features have nothing to do with the distinction between men and women, and the only difference is a mental state, then not only should there be no segregation (what’s the point ? We don’t segregate areas by people who like ice cream , or Christians , or people who are tories) but I fail to see how there can be segregation. You can’t verify if someone is a man or a woman unless you ask them and then they could easily lie.

of course the genderists actually love gender so they don’t want a world where everything is mixed sex. They want transwomen to enjoy the validation of women’s spaces.

I think a lot of TRAs do actually call fir the scrapping of separate facilitues, hence the number of unisex toilets springing up everywhere. You're right that there is an inconsistency in saying biology is irrelevant but also saying we need separate facilities which is why the likes of Stonewall are telling everyone to scrap them

The bottom line is that accepting and respecting that female people have specific needs requiring single sex spaces, means saying to non-female people that there are limits on recognising that male person as a woman.

Saying that a homosexual female has a right to perceive someone as male regardless of how they self-identify and therefore refuse to have sex with them, places limits on recognising that male person as a woman.

Saying that safeguarding girls means that all biological males must follow the same expected procedure for the safety, wellbeing and privacy of those girls, means placing limits on recognising that male person as a woman.

This is essentially what is meant as 'transphobia' - to not unconditionally view a male person as a woman if they identify themselves to you in that way and to utterly subordinate everything, and every female need, exclusion, distress, safety, even actual bloody assault and rape to that male person's wish to have no limits on their transition^ .

A male person's distress at boundaries and limits to their personal freedom does not outweigh the needs of all females. The endless arguing and wrangling is a never ending attempt to try and wrest those boundaries off females to male benefit. There are words for that. We are not talking about kind, inclusive, tolerant behaviour that is capable of compromise or mutual respect, or caring about anything except the male person's interests.

Hence the problem. The 'hate' is simply women refusing unconditional surrender and subordination.

I'll have a bash at this. 😁

The argument will be something about women's facilities being more appropriate for feminine presenting people. There's more room, there's no urinals, there's bigger mirrors. Plus there will be the mind warping point about needing protection from the "male gaze" as a TW.

In truth, it's all about validation and access. I do think, however, some TW seem to be looking for "the secret" to womenhood, and part of their demand for access is because they think they will find it or observe it in female spaces. They don't realise there isn't one: instead, they just believe nasty women are keeping it from them, and thus they can never be 'whole.'

Sorry, haha. As a first time poster I obviously don’t know how to use the board. This is supposed to be another thread! I’ll delete.

I also wonder how many would actually transition if they could be fully feminine but still biologically male.

All Tw remain biologically male, including the 5-10% who undergo surgery to remove their penis and testicles.

Bar prisons (where surely there could be vulnerable sections are TW or vulnerable men) are TW actually at risk in mens facilities? What are the stats?

I can see why women are more at risk from men due to stats on sexual crime largely being committed by men and there is also the dignity angle for both sexes and women are physically weaker but none of those apply to TW.

TW need safe spaces to be protected from men. Not the same spaces as women, though.

Other men and boys are still at risk from men in men's spaces. But that's somewhat beyond the scope of discussion here.

Why is it beyond the scope of discussion here? Men being violent towards 'transwomen', boys and other men is all part of the same thing. The solution is to sort out male violence towards other males, including gender nonconforming males. The cause is men and men should be trying to solve it, not pass the problem onto women.

Because TW are not W. Transwomen are transwomen, so biologically male. No amount of hormones or surgery can change that.

Women need safe spaces so that they are protected from men.

TW need safe spaces to be protected from men. Not the same spaces as women, though.

Other men and boys are still at risk from men in men's spaces. But that's somewhat beyond the scope of discussion here.

Obviously as a woman I do not necessarily have anything much in common with other women besides biology. Personally, most of my friends are male. Same sex spaces are not about what we have in common. They are about safety, privacy and dignity for women, based on biology.

You get TRAs going on about how they're nobly breaking down a form of discrimination by letting men into women's spaces, but they hope you don't notice that they're advocating for discrimination by "gender", and don't ask them why we should do that.

This point is well made.

I also wonder how many would actually transition if they could be fully feminine but still biologically male.

Most 'transwomen' are still fully intact males who have no intention of changing that. Very few of them have genital surgery, and many do no more than dress 'like women'. What we used to call transvestites or crossdressers.

I don’t get why TW objecting to sharing spaces with men takes precedence over women objecting to share spaces with TW. If fear and a perception of humiliation is the main justification for the first, why doesn’t it count for the second? Why are women’s feelings considered unimportant, but TW’s feelings considered paramount, if TW are women?

(As the saying goes: they can’t be women. If they were, no-one would listen to them.)

Yes transitioning men to women can be harassed or worse if they use male toilets but in reality there is not as many as the media makes out.

Is there any actual evidence that this ever happens? And if there is, is there any evidence that it's worse than for any other group of males who might be targeted, such as gay men, ethnic minorities, disabled men, very young men/boys?

I know three men who were abused in toilets as boys. Not fair on boys having to go in there

OP's point is one I keep making, so I like the question, even if the response so far has been a bit grumpy. (You meanies!)

You get TRAs going on about how they're nobly breaking down a form of discrimination by letting men into women's spaces, but they hope you don't notice that they're advocating for discrimination by "gender", and don't ask them why we should do that.

This whole thing took me about 5 minutes to reject about 6-7 years ago, by basically asking similar questions as OP to myself:

"Are there any circumstances where we currently use sex, where 'gender' would do a better job? Can I think of a single one? In what circumstances should I care about someone's gender and treat them differently because of it?" (I think I wasn't using the word "gender" at the time though - it would have been "sex they say they are", compared to "actual sex").

I couldn't think of any. If gender works better than sex, then that means it doesn't need to be sex-segregated, and can be mixed-sex. And once it's mixed-sex, you can't then justify separating "genders" because different-gendered people have no definable separate characteristics.

It makes as much sense as treating people with different star-signs differently. Society should be gender-blind, just as it's star-sign blind.

The segregation has to be by sex or not be there at all, because only sex is objective, immutable, binary and leading to different enough outcomes to justify the segregation/discrimination.

The same logic is quietly built into the EA2010 - discrimination by sex is generally prohibited, but there are a number exceptions, because sometimes it's important to treat sexes differently. Discrimination by gender reassignment is just prohibited, and there are no exceptions - it's never important to treat genders differently. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Although the GRA complicates that, as it complicates everything, once you get a "legal sex change".

I'm aghast at the apparent violence being enacted on men in the M&S changing rooms, or the shopping centre toilets apparently - I send my boys in there alone!

Why haven't men raised a petition or done anything about these places? If they're so dangerous, surely that's the pressing problem we should be fixing, rather than abandoning our sons to fate unless they'll wear a skirt, in which case they can come in the ladies with us?

Being female is not a state of thinking. It is a state of biology and I wish they would just get rid of gender. Now in the state of thinking i.e. gender which should not exist at all no they don't. But in the state of biology yes they do for the following reasons.

1. Women have menstrual cycles period, pads.


2. Men have shown numerous times in history to harass women or far worse when alone, especially if taking clothes of i.e. change rooms. Having separate areas of course does not fully stop it but it makes it a lot harder.


3. Puberty with young girls.


4. Social conditioning across cultures most don't like men to be in areas women are vulnerable doing personal things. Many of those look harshly on the women for allowing it.

But no they shouldn't just use the women's on a I feel like woman idea.

But mostly get rid of gender. I personally don't know why anyone has a problem with a man in a dress, makeup or exhibiting behaviour and mannerisms that equate to old fashioned female gender stereotyping and if we stopped that judgement those men who are transitioning would have no problem using the male toilets and fully being who they are. I also wonder how many would actually transition if they could be fully feminine but still biologically male.

Perhaps the way forward until we get rid of gender and gender stereotypes/social expectations is the completely single individual toilets/change rooms rather than toilet blocks is the way to go.

If TWAW, they aren't so there is no answer to this at all. Trans women are trans women.

Because blokes in general, aren't fussed at all about blokes who make them feel a bit uncomfy being shunted in with the women. Win win win for them.

Totally fucks things for women and girls obviously but hey.... Being at constant risk of sexually motived crime of all severities is just a thing we have to live with! So whole thing cool. For men it's general. Yay!!!!