Can't make this add up.

Lots of types of males are bigger targets for other males, gay males, males with severe learning disabilities, shall we let them all take haven with females?

My child from 8 years old had to change in the male changing rooms without me at our local pool because that is the rules, is a grown adult male in any presentation more vulnerable than a child?

Elective surgery for able bodied people is noone elses right on the NHS yet it is the right of this group. Everyone else has to manage their expectations.

all of whom have endless stories of the ways in which society victimises and sidelines them on a daily basis

I'm sure they have this perception. So do many women, if anyone bothered to listen.

You fundamentally can't base any rights claim on the insistence that the circle is a square. You have to admit that it's a circle, and then deal with any remaining issues.

Well said, Necessary.

It seems to me the first priority in sorting out this mess is to get back to telling the truth.

For human beings, there are exactly two sexes; changing sex is impossible. (Logically, metaphysically, scientifically impossible.)

OK, some people really - no, really - want to be the other sex. They can't. So what to do?

We should, of course, accommodate such people to the very best of our ability, socially, legally, medically, morally, personally ... in every way, so long as such accommodation does not deleteriously impinge on others or involve accepting denial of what we know to be true.

Framing the matter in this way, it seems to me, is much more likely to help us get to grips with matters in a sensible way rather than colluding or paying lip service to (often absurd) falsehoods such as that anyone who says he is a woman thereby changes sex and all the rest.

"Tell truth and shame the devil." Not, perhaps, just because ex falso quodlibet, although that certainly ought to inform our determinations. We will be better off thereby, or so at least it would seem. No?

Brilliant - I really want to see this!

the supposition that trans women are in fact safe in male spaces is something that I know to be untrue, for instance

Anyone is going to be safer in a female-only space than in a male-only or mixed-sex space.

But, logically, only females can be put into female-only spaces.

You can imagine as some sort of "witness protection programme" some carefully-vetted and traced number of men could be allowed into some otherwise-female-only spaces. That's kind of the scenario the GRA2004 was founded on, although there was no real vetting. (No-one really considered women's rights on that seriously).

But how do you justify keeping other men out of that space? Answer is - you can't - hence the calls for "self ID" to let any man into the space.

So you end up with just have a bunch of mixed-sex spaces, and no-one is safe or happy.

This whole idea of "letting some special men into women's spaces" is something we call a "social construct". It's not some law of nature, it's something we've decided to do - with good intentions but bad thinking - and we can decide to stop doing it.

Other cultures with "third genders" look at us as if we're mad. The Samoans are outraged at us entering our Fa'afafine into female competitions, pushing out their female competitors. They're sophisticated enough to know that Fa'afafine are male, whereas we're apparently stupid enough to try to treat them as female.

Try and be as sensible as the Samoans, not as stupid as the Americans.

Or is that too inconvenient for your earnest attempt to solve the problems for males ?

@MVDC are you going to address that some of those trans women are the predators? Obligatory NATWALT

It is not the females that are the problem, why is it us that are expected to protect males from other males?

You also get your medical records amended to state an incorrect height and campaign to get anything that references height recategorised because it is triggering and people like you feel suicidal when reminded that they are short. Etc etc.

It's not a perfect analogy, but....

@MVDC

Imagine this as a thought experiment.

You are a man who is far shorter than average. You hate this; it makes you feel inadequate every single day. You feel that you should be a tall person and run a successful campaign against "shortophobia", as a result of which everyone is obliged to pretend not to notice that you are shorter, or that you are wearing massive platform shoes, or to bend their knees in your presence to ensure that they don't make you feel uncomfortable with their additional height. You encourage others to victimise people, including really tall men or women, who state height preferences on their dating profiles. You feel less safe in male spaces, in case bigger men attack you or ridicule, so you campaign to be allowed in female ones.

Does this make you a victim, or a bully?

I know this isn't the same as being trans, btw, but have written the above to illustrate the effect on others.

If Stonewall, & all the other groups who used to campaign for LGB rights before they went homophobic, focused their substantial budgets & influence towards making male spaces safe for all males who identify as trans or nonbinary that would make a huge difference.

The likes of Owen Jones, Billy Bragg, Pink News etc could be pushing for greater acceptance & support from men instead of throwing abuse at women. Hashtag #YesALLMen or #YouCanPeeWithMe.

It’s the same people. They’ve managed to get us all to fight amongst ourselves

Not quite.

I am very much uncomfortable with ANY male however they present in any female single sex spaces.

That includes transitioned males which your statement seems to include.

It is not the 'same males'. It is males .

Do you have any evidence that trans women are less safe in men's spaces than other male bodied gender non-conforming people. Should effeminate gay men be allowed to use women's spaces for safety reasons, or just TW?

In my experience many big (tall and strong) young men find themselves the target of aggressive behaviour from other young men who want to prove themselves against someone who looks "alpha." What are we going to do to help big strong men stay safe from male violence, and what is tangible that means that TW deserve more support from women than big strong men deserve?

the supposition that trans women are in fact safe in male spaces is something that I know to be untrue, for instance

Can we ask why you know this to be untrue?

NecessaryScene · Today 15:55

I've heard a fair few trans people talk about the "Transphobia 2.0" they now get where people are afraid to interact with them because they assume that being trans they must be some sort of crazed sex-denying ideologue just itching to jump on anyone letting slip the slightest indication that they can tell their sex.

I don't have to interact with trans people very often if at all... but we have got to a point where I am afraid of interacting with trans people because I cannot abide being polite to people who hold repellent views (for example people who are racist or homophobic or misogynistic). I am also afraid of people who look like they might be SJWs. It is not a fear or hatred of trans it is a hatred of bigotry, and when I see a trans person or SJW nowadays my reaction is "you may well be a hateful bigot who I do not want to be polite to. I want to know what you think ASAP so I know whether I am willing to engage in a chat or whether on principle I refuse to give you a second of your time." Given it is a bit rude to ask people beliefs first thing when you meet them, I'd rather not meet trans people or SJWs.

Piffle.

Your rapist is a 'he'. Do not ever feel you can't say that.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

Do you know what I’ve just realised reading this thread? For all of us women, transwomen and transmen it’s one group of men that have got us all cornered.
We know who those men are. We know the ones that are the threat. We know who it is that women, transwomen and transmen are frightened of. It’s the same people. They’ve managed to get us all to fight amongst ourselves

This!

Exactly.

Make your choice, you pay the price.
I'm sick to fucking death of being told your friends choices mean my life has to change, be even more limited, more dangerous, more difficult, less free.

No. Just 100% no No No No No No.

I'm all out of female kindness.

For us women just being allowed to be called women seems a bit of a utopian idea at present to be honest.

@MVDC

OP how do you identify genuinely trans individuals ?

The male who raped me fits Stonewalls definition. The rapist’s ‘gender fluid cross dressing’ lulled me into thinking that rapist was not a threat.*

I dare not say this to anyone under my real name for fear of further abuse

Why the fuck do you think I should have to have my life restricted further so males like the one who raped me can get access to female spaces where we are vulnerable?

*sentence structure is clumsy because I cannot and will not use female pronouns for a rapist and if I use male pronouns my post is in danger of being deleted

I would argue that it is the more extreme end of the trans activists plus stonewall that have created this problem. 5 or 10 years ago, most women were sympathetic and accepting of transwomen (or transsexuals).

However most transsexuals we're not denying reality and not insisting on barging in where it is not appropriate. It is stonewall insisting that 'transwomen are women' is a literal truth and blocking any debate which has created the mess we are currently in.

I have enormous sympathy for those with gender dysphoria just trying to get on with their lives, but that doesn't mean we should let women's rights to privacy and their own sport's categories to be trampled over.

And I'm not even mentioning the whole safeguarding mess with gender issues and children.

For me it's simple.

Transwomen: I don't care. Men can deal with that.

Transmen: I don't care. Reject womanhood? Crack on, but don't expect any help or support from me when it all goes tits off up.