Why the hate?

Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group." You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

The effect of what these particular males are advocating for though suggestions is just that. That you cannot see it, says more about you than it does us, I'm afraid.

Obviously it seems to need to be spelled out:

By recording the crime not only artificially increases the female crime statistics for that crime, it removes them from the male crime statistics.

Obfuscating these male's crimes as 'female' crimes means that when someone comes to look for the crimes, they cannot find any data about it.

Ergo, some groups can then claim that transitioned males have a lower risk of committing sex crimes than other males.

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group. They are females and they commit crime at a rate close to the female rate." Actually, if you take some of the imprisonment stats for the US at face value, they commit crime at a far, far higher rate than straight women:

You do keep going with that on a UK site. Yes there may well be issues with the USA lesbian community that needs to be addressed.

No. It still is NOT analogous.

These are females committing crimes as females. If there is an issue and they really are committing sex crimes near the male rate, then further research needs to be done as to why. How long has this been going on? What is driving it and address it?

It is still not analogous because no one is trying to say that lesbians are not committing those crimes. No one is trying to say that those lesbians are males. No one is attempting to hide the statistics.

Keep posting all the links you want suggestions, it makes no difference to the reasons WHY the thread you find so distasteful is there.

There is no attempt for lesbians or any support group to have these lesbian statistics recorded as anything else which will have the effect of hiding the statistics.

Again, that you cannot see that is your own issue to deal with.

But do crack on. We will just keep repeating the message as it will not change because you have tried to reframe it in some dishonest way.

Figure of 1.3% from here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48095118

Only five rapists in your prisons, ladies! Stand down! Sure it'll be fine.

Thank goodness it's not the case that far more assaults/rapes happen than ever result in convictions, eh? Otherwise, given the conviction rate of - what is it - 1.3%? - one might extrapolate that rather more males are guilty of rape/assault than are actually convicted of it.

334bu's post seems to suggest there are actually very few transgender women (with or without GRC) convicted of a sexual offence in the women's prison estate:

"The Minister also stated that the number of trans-identifying prisoners held in
the women’s prison estate with a conviction for at least one sexual offence
was fewer than 5, and that this included prisoners with a GRC."

More whataboutery, I see. Any chance you could deal with the issue itself? As pp said, if you want to discuss research about lesbians, start another thread.

Researchers found roughly a third of incarcerated women identify as lesbian or bisexual,

So are they more likely to be incarcerated compared to heterosexual women?

You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

What makes you think they 'genuinely identify as female'? How would we know whether a man 'genuinely identifies as female' and isn't just identifying as a woman in order to win at sporting events or gain access to vulnerable women? What qualities are there in someone who 'genuinely identifies as female' which would enable us to distinguish between them and those who are just doing it for other reasons?

What does it mean to 'genuinely identify as female'? How does someone genuinely identify as something they are not?

The biggest, scariest, most violent lesbian cannot rape a woman, cannot get a woman pregnant, and is less likely to be able to kill a woman.

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group." You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

Because any idiot can see why males would prefer to be in the jail with women. Doesn't really make any difference to the women whether they are genuinely 'feminine identifying' or not, the effect is the same.

www.researchgate.net/publication/258194023_Sexual_Assault_and_Coercion_among_Incarcerated_Women_Prisoners_Excerpts_from_Prison_Letters

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group." You make it sound like transwomen are identifying as women with the sole intent of access to a 'lower risk' group. Why would you think that, as opposed to thinking they genuinely identify as female?

"Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group. They are females and they commit crime at a rate close to the female rate." Actually, if you take some of the imprisonment stats for the US at face value, they commit crime at a far, far higher rate than straight women:

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/overwhelming-number-lesbians-bisexual-women-incarcerated-n728666

"For women, the overrepresentation is much more pronounced: Researchers found roughly a third of incarcerated women identify as lesbian or bisexual, "a proportion that is about 8 to 10 times greater than the 3.4 percent of lesbian or bisexual women in the U.S. population." When women who engaged in same-sex sexual activity prior to their detention are factored in, sexual minority women account for a staggering 42.1 percent of the female prison population and 35.7 percent of women in jails."

In fact, these figures would put lesbians not far off the rate of male offending.

Is the comparison more analogous now?

Those boards wanting to make the case further could post some of the research on sexual assaults on women by other female prisoners.

eg. citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.576.6276&rep=rep1&type=pdf

They could probably put together as persuasive a case as people could on the trans women issue?

Forgot to post source of quote.
Policy Exchange Report.

"On 14January 2022, in a reply

to a written question from Tim Loughton MP, Justice Minister Victoria

Atkins stated that the latest data, collected on 31 March 2021, showed that

there were 146 prisoners who were legally male and identified as female in

all prisons across England and Wales. This figure did not include prisoners

who identify as transgender who have a GRC. Taking into account only the

offences which had led to an individual’s current imprisonment, and not

previous offences, she stated that 87 of these prisoners who were housed

in the men’s estate had a conviction for at least one sexual offence. The

Minister also stated that the number of trans-identifying prisoners held in

the women’s prison estate with a conviction for at least one sexual offence

was fewer than 5, and that this included prisoners with a GRC. She did not

say how many trans-identifying males in total were held in the women’s

estate.8

These latest figures suggest that the proportion of trans-identifying

males in the prison estate who have been convicted of sexual offences is

in the region of 60 per cent. The exact percentage would depend on how

many prisoners the ‘fewer than 5’ in the female prison estate represented."

If there is evidence that lesbians are disproportionately imprisoned compared to heterosexual women, then I would think that was interesting and hope someone with expertise in sociology/statistics was taking a closer look.

I'm assuming there are loads of uncomfortable facts in US prison stats involving race, sex, age, literacy, geography etc. Of both convicts and the police forces and judiciary personnel.

We've seen what happens when people shy away from uncomfortable facts, ie in Rotherham.

You made many points suggestions. However you have not established at all, that the connection which makes them analogous. At all.

You continue to ignore it and I don't know why.

Lesbians are not attempting to identify into a 'lower risk' group. They are females and they commit crime at a rate close to the female rate. I am sure there will be other groups of females that will commit sex crime at a rate commensurate with those lesbians you are attempting to force the analogy to fit with.

Do lesbians or any other female group commit sex crime at the same rate as male?

What other male sub group are you willing to consider to be in that same 'safe risk' zone you are attempting to persuade women to accept for transitioned males?

If there are underlying reasons why those transitioned males are committing crimes at rates that seem even higher than other males, why aren't lobby groups addressing that? Why are they instead seeking to deny it. And, if the statistics are lying, why aren't the lobby groups gathering information and publishing it to refute the other statistics?

So, your analogy doesn't work, you are accusing women of hate for your own agenda. You are not working with the lobby groups to address an issue that you recognise and frankly, we know may be an issue, but it is still not a reason to including males as females in statistics, reporting, and in prisons. And if they need their own safe spaces, campaign to get them.

But you are here avoiding the reasons why the collection and dissemination of the facts and the data is necessary.

Plus if you had actually bothered to read many of the threads where that study is posted, it is rarely used to support our arguments. It has a correlation, yes. But the thing is, we can use the current statistics of transitioned males who are in the UK prisons. And yes, we have seen it and discussed it at length. Plus, please do tell us suggestions exactly what mental health support is being given to males with gender dysphoria these days? You pointed it out here:

trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. but it seems that there is now very little mental health care given. So, your own point seems to be again irrelevant for this era.

And suggestions, if you don't like those UK prison statistics then maybe you should actually go and work with those lobby groups to gather some robust data so that everyone will have very clear, unobfuscated data to work with?

Otherwise, women and women's groups will continue to collect the information and disseminate it until the push to lower the boundaries of safeguarding around this group has ceased and the myths as to their 'lower risk' is finally proven or disproven.

While I was looking for that other thread I found this from a few days ago.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens?s=r

Males who identify as trans who have committed violent crimes against women and/or children. With pictures. Looking forward to @suggestionsplease1 explaining why we should be sympathetic to these violent criminals and why they should be placed in women's prisons.

Perhaps @suggestionsplease1 would like to start a thread documenting the disproportionate number of violent and sexual crimes committed by lesbians? The boring, old fashioned dinosaur kind, I mean..

There is a thread on FWR, which documents a collection of crimes committed by trans people which anyone can add to. The stated rationale behind this is to counter anti-safeguarding relaxations, but I think it could also be argued that it might contribute to feelings of hostility to trans people in general.

Is this the thread you're referring to @suggestionsplease1 ?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?

I made a parallel argument

The parallel of 'trans people' is not 'lesbian'.

Men who identify as trans are now, according to the latest figures, 3 times as likely to commit crimes of a sexual nature than men who do not identify as trans. [60% of the prison population as opposed to 18%]

Lesbians are not women who identify as anything, they are just women who are same sex attracted. The equivalent would be to look at women who identify as trans and those stats. As far as I can see, there is very little crime committed by women who identify as trans. If there was, I'm sure there would already be a website on it [because MRAs are always quick to document female crimes].

And when you consider that:
a - men who identify as trans are less likely to get sentences due to judges not wanting to put them into female prisons [as the judiciary are so captured they would rather let men who identify as women go, because there are no courses designed for women for the crimes they are committing and they don't want violent males locked up with females]...

and

b - the number of sex crimes that result in any sentence of any sort being given to perpetrators [what is it, 1 or 2% of rapes of females we know of, let alone those which are not reported]...

It is a serious issue that needs to be looked at.

If the powers that be refuse to do so, then it becomes something that general run of the mill women have to do. Because it matters.

As I've said before, I'm really just trying to address the original purpose of this thread - which is about whether hate is directed towards trans people on these boards.

It's not really terribly elaborate, it's quite a simple question I am asking...

There is a thread on FWR, which documents a collection of crimes committed by trans people which anyone can add to. The stated rationale behind this is to counter anti-safeguarding relaxations, but I think it could also be argued that it might contribute to feelings of hostility to trans people in general.

I made a parallel argument about the possibilities of this happening on another forum, but where the documentation of crimes was regarding those committed by lesbians. (Of course this is likely to be harder to do as sexuality is probably not as immediately obvious as transgender status might be during criminal cases.) I noted that, for people so inclined to do so, they could find stats to shore up their assertions that lesbians are more criminal / dangerous than straight women.

Their argument would follow the same format and principles that the transgender one does: "This population are statistically more prone to criminality and abuse than straight women, don't try to no-debate us on this issue, we are entitled to research this to try to find the truth, document what we find and implement safeguarding measures accordingly.'

Would this be hateful towards lesbians?

I pointed out that, if it is acceptable to follow this process on the FWR boards, why shouldn't others argue that it is acceptable to follow this process on their boards? I don't know whether this is something that is already happening or not, but I would find it hard to see how FWR boards could counter anything like that in the future should it occur elsewhere, because of the rationales that they themselves are applying.

More generally I have alluded to contributing factors to criminality and conviction rates, sentencing, and I'm making a fairly straightforward point that disadvantage, discrimination, prejudice and minority stress can all be considered as contributing factors for any minority. If you recognise these concerns for the lesbian population you can not ignore them for the transgender population and try to claim any objectivity.

This area is worth considering further:

There is the main Swedish cohort study that GC feminists frequently rely on to argue that male-to-female transgender people retain a male pattern of criminality:

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

The lead author of that study refutes GC feminist commentary on it:

“Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality,
specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers
the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and
1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality,
suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not
find a male pattern of criminality.
As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of
convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of
crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were
certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was
that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar
rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.
The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the
trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of
ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting
measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects
a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far
worse.”

www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/foi-eir-release/2020/03/foi-202000017446/documents/foi-202000017446---information-released---document-1/foi-202000017446---information-released---document-1/govscot%3Adocument/FOI-202000017446%2B-%2BInformation%2Breleased%2B-%2BDocument%2B1.pdf

So the author of the main study relied upon by GC feminists refutes the assertions they are making, notes that latter cohort did not have a male pattern of criminality, and* attributes this to a lessening of social stigma for trans people *and improving health and psychological care.

So if you're someone who really cares about reduced offending perhaps it's important to work towards reducing the social stigma that populations can face?

I'm still not sure what Suggestions is insinuating. Some may think I am being flippant. Sadly, I'm not.

Apparently Suggestions did not mean that sex offenders who are trans are institutionally discriminated against and it's not that they go to prison where someone else would not. It's a good thing she's not suggesting that, as I can remember instances where judges have declined to impose a prison sentence because the sex offender asserted that they were trans.

But all this leaves me feeling very confused because that's what her posts seem to be driving at, over and over and over again, and I thought I had a handle on what her point was, even if I didn't agree.

What was the point of all the questions about same-sex attracted women in prison then? And why is sentencing for women in prison for non-violent crime relevant to a discussion about crimes of sexual violence? 84% of women in prison are there for non-violent crime. The remaining percentage are almost entirely not there for crimes of sexual violence, because consistently, 99% of sexual violence convictions are committed by male offenders. If the point isn't an attempt to reference unfair sentencing of minoritised groups, what is it?

And if she were saying that sex offenders who are trans are institutionally discriminated against in the judicial system, then what would the next step be? An annual cap, or limit, on the number of trans identifying sex offenders prosecuted? Should the Crown Prosecution Service tell the police, "sorry, can't prosecute this rapist because they've IDed as trans, and if we convict any more rapists from that subset, we'll look institutionally transphobic?"

We are talking about rapists, not young women caught shoplifting. I have read of sentencing for non-violent offenders of both sexes, which I thought was unjust and indicative of bias in the judicial system.

But I have never, but never, read of a rapist's court case in this country and thought that the sentence for them was disproportionately harsh. Never. I've often thought the sentencing was far too lenient. If anyone is looking at our records of UK sex offenders in the news and thinking the ones claiming to be trans are being punished too harshly, then come out and tell us right here, right now, what you think the sentence for rape should be.

Now, now Purgs The nasty habit we GC wimmin have of actually being able to research, read, understand all of that data is really irritating. Stop it!

Here's an example of a sex offender experiencing disproportionate treatment in the penal stystem after identifying as trans. But you could hardly call it harsh.

extract

A transgender woman, now 26, has been ordered to serve just two years in a juvenile detention center for sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl, after LA DA George Gascon refused to prosecute her as an adult.

Hannah Tubbs, formerly known as James, now 26, pleaded guilty in 2020 to sexually assaulting the young girl in a Denny's bathroom in 2014, when she was 17.

Prosecutors had pushed for her to stay in a Los Angeles County Jail and be tried as an adult but Gascón declined to file a motion to move the case out of juvenile court, where it was filed because of Tubbs' age at the time of offense.

Gascon said previously that he was concerned Tubbs could be victimized due to her gender identity in an adult facility, and had even recommended she simply be sentenced to home confinement. [bold mine]

Before handing down the light sentence of just two years in a juvenile facility and no requirement to register as a sex offender, Judge Mario Barrera said his hands were tied by Gascón.

'I want to be clear,' Barrera said at the Lancaster, California, court sentencing Thursday. 'The filing of a transfer motion is entirely within the discretion of the district attorney.'

Gascon's decision has sparked fury among prosecutors in LA.

Deputy District Attorney Shea Sanna slammed the move after the hearing, telling the New York Post: 'You have a violent sexual predator sentenced to two years in a juvenile facility.

'It doesn't change the fact that the public is safer, but we just preferred Tubbs to be with other adults and not prey on others.'

L.A. Deputy District Attorney Jon Hatami, assigned to the Complex Child Abuse Unit,, told Fox News: 'Tubbs is 26 years old. Unlike George Gascon's false narrative, she is not a 'kid.'

'There was evidence presented at the juvenile proceedings which showed that Tubbs sexually assaulted two young girls in different incidents in the past. The child victims will suffer lifelong trauma. Tubbs also has prior violent convictions and conduct as an adult.'

Tubbs, who identified as male at the time of the crime had followed the girl into the bathroom, held her by the throat and forced his hand down the girl's pants. She only stopped when someone came into the restroom, and then ran away before she could be stopped.

Gascon's decision has sparked fury among prosecutors in LA.

It took years before Tubbs was identified as the attacker after being arrested in Idaho in 2019 on suspicion of battery.

She has since transitioned.

DNA entered into a database that matched Tubbs with the sexual assault at Denny's, and the accused was brought back to California - by which point there were arrests, according to Fox, for battery, drug possession and probation violations in Idaho and Washington.

Despite the prior convictions, Tubbs will serve her time in isolation, away from the other juveniles and will be housed with female inmates.

Two years is the maximum sentence a juvenile can receive up until the age of 25. The DA recently change the rule and said he would 'immediately' stop prosecuting children as adults.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10450891/LA-judge-orders-transgender-woman-26-serve-two-years-juvenile-facility-sexually-assault.html

I think home confinement would have been better. Why lock up an adult male who is accused of sexually assaulting two female children with female children? If you're concerned for the sexual offenders' safety, put them in a vulnerable prisoners unit in an adult prison. Juvenile detention in california looks like it contains children as young as 12. Is California now rewarding child abusers with access to locked up children?

Oh, btw, Tubbs has since been charged with murder, in connection with a man found dead in 2019.

Also, as you mention, lots of places have full self ID. How do I know how many of the lesbians were actually male?

I've given you evidence that lesbians are statistically supposedly far, far more likely to commit crimes that straight women. What do you have to say about that?

That it's irrelevant whataboutery and I don't know the truth of it, the confounders and how reliable the evidence is. I do know that male people are responsible for 98% of sex crime and most other violent crime. Hope that clears that up.