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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can anyone help me complain about this?

117 replies

sunflowersandtomatoes · 23/05/2022 09:45

This is my first post on the Feminism board, but I've been reading you all for years, and have so much respect for you, and now I'm hoping you can help me deal with my first example of gender craziness in the wild. I've NCed for this, sorry about that, I just don't want any of this to be traced back to me.

So I'm doing a course - the first step towards training to be a counsellor. I'm not sure if I will do the subsequent levels. It's a course where you have to do a lot of soul searching, and a lot of it is about getting to know yourself, and talking about your own motivations and barriers and stuff. Interesting, although I find it a bit much sometimes.

A small part of last week's big assignment was to think about whether there was anyone we would find it difficult to listen to or help. I thought, and wrote, carefully, and I came up with this:

"I see gender as a social construct and I don’t believe that someone can change sex, so I don’t believe that transwomen are women. I espouse and defend people’s right to identify however they like, and I would always be respectful of chosen names and pronouns. However, I would find it difficult to listen to a transwoman talking about their struggles with their gender identity, and I don’t agree that affirmation is the best way of helping a young person who experiences gender dysphoria. Ultimately, I just don’t think I could be hugely helpful to someone with those kinds of issues, and I wonder whether that will be a problem in the future."

I think it's respectful and honest, but my tutor chose, in her feedback, to focus exclusively on this paragraph, to the exclusion of the other 1900 words I wrote, and sent me this:

"I acknowledge that you have identified a specific area that you would find it difficult to work with – gender identity. It is good and ethical to identify this so that when you work with clients you have the relevant experience and skill set and are giving them what they need. There is some interesting material on different websites around this subject: Gendered Intelligence, Mermaids and Stonewall, to name a few, which may broaden your understanding and research around this. It is worth mentioning here that gender identity is one of the nine protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010 and as such it is unlawful to discriminate against someone on the grounds of their gender identity just as it would be to discriminate against race, religion or disability to name three others on the list."

I am so angered by this, which is why I'm finding it difficult to respond! I am very well read on the subject (although not as well read as some of you), and I find her suggestion that I should read those bullshit websites (again) to "broaden my understanding" very fucking insulting. It's also not her place to lecture me. If she wants to recommend literature about counselling, I'll be happy to hear it, but anything else (gender issues, the war in Ukraine, what colours suit me best, how to raise my children) just isn't in her remit. And thirdly, what, is she suggesting I might also be a racist, because I've said that men can't be women? It feels like another example of unthinking people talking shit about something they haven't really thought about, and it's SO damaging.

Honestly, I know a lot of you have faced much bigger injustices around this issue, and I salute you. Any advice you can give me about how to respond (complain, if we're honest) would help me to take the heat out of it. Or maybe you think I should just leave it - happy to hear that too.

Thanks for reading.

OP posts:
sunflowersandtomatoes · 23/05/2022 21:34

It's also poor form for the tutor to be misquoting the EA without checking, and it suggests a disappointing intellectual laziness and lack of curiosity. But those characteristics may also make engaging with her fruitless (suddenly I'm thinking of Wagatha Christie and pigeons).
@drhf 😂I'm feeling better already! I knew it was a good idea to post.

OP posts:
itsakindofmagnet · 23/05/2022 21:22

Is this CPCAB L2? I would not be writing to them about anything to do this.

Crazylazydayz · 23/05/2022 21:16

In this case I would respond along the lines of:
Thank you for your helpful feedback, as so do not want to discriminate I have reviewed the EA2010 www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/part/2/chapter/1 and found that Sex, Sexual Orientation and Gender reassignment are 3 of the 9 protected characteristics.

However, I have been unable to find any reference to Gender Identity, which is different to Gender Reassignment, as a protected characteristic. I would really appreciate it if you could send me a link to the relevant section.

No one can take offence asking for a legal reference.

drhf · 23/05/2022 17:37

The protected characteristic in the Act is being interpreted by tribunals to include people who identify as non-binary, gender fluid or transitioning. You might want to be careful about getting into a legal technical debate with her on this point.
Definitely the protected characteristic of gender reassignment has in practice come to resemble much of what is meant by "gender identity", so this gotcha doesn't make much tangible difference here.

But democratic rule of law means recognising the legislation which Parliament approved and which we can all see and debate, rather than certain organisations' self-serving interpretations. So I'd probably say something to the tutor to make her aware of her factual error, while also noting that the scope of "gender reassignment" is still being explored by the courts and might - or might not - in time come to be contiguous with Stonewall's definitions of "gender identity".

It's also poor form for the tutor to be misquoting the EA without checking, and it suggests a disappointing intellectual laziness and lack of curiosity. But those characteristics may also make engaging with her fruitless (suddenly I'm thinking of Wagatha Christie and pigeons).

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 23/05/2022 17:20

@GoodJanetBadJanet my apologies, on my phone and, because with the update it now judders when it scrolls, I didn't see that I had muxxed up 2 posts.

I wouldn't dream of deliberately maligning you for something you hadn't posted!

However, the sentiment remains. A counsellor and or therapist can, and indeed should, refer on any client for whom they cannot give their best to.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 23/05/2022 17:15

It would be unethical to accept a client if your feelings about their stuff will get in the way of the work. That's not bigotry, that's in the clients' best interest, surely?

Going by that logic, it's OK for a counsellor to refuse to accept a client because you thought being gay was a choice, it's not natural and they could choose to not be (NOT my views, by the way, just giving an example.)
If you feel that you can't work with them despite that being your feelings and that's all that you're basing not wanting to work with them on, that's not bigotry, that's just in the client's best interest, surely?
Going by your logic that is.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 23/05/2022 17:10

My Janet, what long arms you have. That was a stretch, even for you!
Say what?
Also, why link to someone else's post and then refer to me?
You make no sense.
That wasn't even my post so not entirely sure what you're going on about, sorry.

Pluvia · 23/05/2022 16:42

GoodJanetBadJanet · 23/05/2022 16:06

She’s just gently reminding you of your ethical duty as a (trainee) counsellor that in your future practice you cannot discriminate.

Yes, this

This is nonsense. As I and others have said, counsellors and therapists don't have any kind of ethical duty to take on anyone who turns up at their door. Most require a first exploratory session where both client and therapist check out whether they think they are a good fit. Either party can decide not to go any further. A good therapist will be honest if they have reason to believe you're not ready for therapy or they're not the right therapist for you. A bad therapist will take your money every week and spend years reflecting stuff back at you as you go round in ever-decreasing circles.

SpringBadger · 23/05/2022 16:38

Sorry, *men and TM

SpringBadger · 23/05/2022 16:38

@DontLikeCrumpets I think the key point here is not the extent of transition, but the comparator. My understanding is that under the PC of Gender Reassignment, the comparator is someone of the same birth sex who hasn't transitioned. That's why it's confusing when it's given as "gender identity" or "gender", because those terms suggest that the comparator should be someone of the opposite sex. I mean, under gender ideology, we all have a gender identity, right? So if Stonewall Law was true, both myself and a TW would be categorised together in opposition to men and TW, but in reality no such legal grouping exists. You can't treat a TW worse than a man who isn't trans, but you don't therefore have to treat them as a woman in all respects or swear that you believe that they are one.

Pluvia · 23/05/2022 16:28

DontLikeCrumpets · 23/05/2022 15:43

@Pluvia
I thought gender is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act given that one only has to express the intent to transition.

Gender reassignment

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

No, it's Gender Reassignment that is the protected characteristic. Here you go:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

It's listed on the opening page, you don't have to go looking for it.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 23/05/2022 16:15

nothingcomestonothing · 23/05/2022 16:07

My Janet, what long arms you have. That was a stretch, even for you!

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 23/05/2022 16:14

GoodJanetBadJanet · 23/05/2022 16:03

Saying you think you would have a problem helping trans people, I can see why she has given you feedback on that as that does sound discriminatory.
You can't discriminate against someone (ie, not wanting to help someone) just because they're trans and you "don't believe that they can change sex."

Don't be daft. A counsellor can refuse, refer on, any potential client they want to. Who would ant to insist on speaking to a counsellor who has no experience or no desire to treat you? They need to refer on. But cannot be forced to take on a client they gave a fundamental issue with. Your rights don't get stripped when you get certified!

nothingcomestonothing · 23/05/2022 16:13

Oh, and you absolutely should 'discriminate' in which clients you feel you wouldn't work with effectively. It would be unethical to accept a client if your feelings about their stuff will get in the way of the work. That's not bigotry, that's in the clients' best interest, surely? If I want to talk about my abortion, a therapist who sincerely believes I'm going to hell for what I've done isn't going to be best placed to help me, are they?

Thelnebriati · 23/05/2022 16:11

In this context, helping someone would be to refer them to a different counsellor.

GoodJanetBadJanet · 23/05/2022 16:06

She’s just gently reminding you of your ethical duty as a (trainee) counsellor that in your future practice you cannot discriminate.

Yes, this

GoodJanetBadJanet · 23/05/2022 16:03

Saying you think you would have a problem helping trans people, I can see why she has given you feedback on that as that does sound discriminatory.
You can't discriminate against someone (ie, not wanting to help someone) just because they're trans and you "don't believe that they can change sex."

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 23/05/2022 15:57

Yes, it is the act of reassignment, no matter how superficial, that is protected. Not the inumerable names for 'gender' that are lost to / currently undefined in law.

So you can have stated your decision to be trans (and maybe non binary, depending on the outcome of a HOC discussion in a short while) and that is something that is protected.

But if you choose to be a Zebra/Zero then that identity is not. It can be laughed at called into question

DontLikeCrumpets · 23/05/2022 15:43

@Pluvia
I thought gender is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act given that one only has to express the intent to transition.

Gender reassignment

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

sunflowersandtomatoes · 23/05/2022 14:46

Pluvia · 23/05/2022 14:08

Maybe the OP wants to challenge because challenging this is the only way of ensuring that the tutor understands that she hasn't properly understood the Equality Act. And because the OP is well-informed on this issue and the tutor has recommended reading material from lobby groups that have no credible evidence to back up their claims?

It might be interesting, OP, if you could talk this over with other students and compare what they listed as their potential areas of bias and what feedback the tutor gave them. I might have mentioned being uncomfortable with the idea of counselling someone with fundamentalist religious ideas. I wonder what she'd have recommended I read to redress the balance.

Talking to other students is an excellent idea, because I also wondered what might have been said if I had said, for example, I find abortion triggering, so I don't want to talk to clients about that. And yes, is there recommended reading and re-education for all elements of bias?

OP posts:
Pluvia · 23/05/2022 14:08

Maybe the OP wants to challenge because challenging this is the only way of ensuring that the tutor understands that she hasn't properly understood the Equality Act. And because the OP is well-informed on this issue and the tutor has recommended reading material from lobby groups that have no credible evidence to back up their claims?

It might be interesting, OP, if you could talk this over with other students and compare what they listed as their potential areas of bias and what feedback the tutor gave them. I might have mentioned being uncomfortable with the idea of counselling someone with fundamentalist religious ideas. I wonder what she'd have recommended I read to redress the balance.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 23/05/2022 14:04

That paragraph you wrote was commendably honest and in good faith but it contains and exposes inherent contradictions, notwithstanding the tutor's own mistakes and failings re understanding the topic and the law.

And having explored her feelings OP would be within her rights, as a therapist or otherwise, to recognise that she would never be a good fit for a transwoman and to reject them from her client base on those grounds - that she would not be effective! Some may choose to call that discrimination, but, given the context, you'd have to seriously consider their motives for doing so!

Abitofalark · 23/05/2022 13:45

I don't see what is to be gained, for you, by challenging your tutor out of anger. You, the student, are indignant that it isn't her job to lecture you; still less is it your job to lecture her. Your anger may be dictating your reaction rather than looking at this coolly.

As I see it, you are both wrong in different ways - she about the Act, (and I find it striking that she did not mention sex as one of her examples of the nine protected characteristics, which is disturbing, especially given the topic but not only for that reason) and there is something for you to consider seriously about your ability to counsel a trans person, given your stated view about gender, and that you would find it difficult to listen to their struggle, while going on to state you espouse the right to identify and that you respect names and pronouns. That paragraph you wrote was commendably honest and in good faith but it contains and exposes inherent contradictions, notwithstanding the tutor's own mistakes and failings re understanding the topic and the law.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 23/05/2022 13:30

Yes, annoyingly, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (quoted below from their website) seems to support her, although she's got her terminology wrong. So that's not the unassailable fact I'd like it to be.
To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.
You can be at any stage in the transition process – from proposing to reassign your gender, to undergoing a process to reassign your gender, or having completed it.

No it really doesn't. You can reply that, as per the EHRC you fully understand that a person need not to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.
You can be at any stage in the transition process – from proposing to reassign your gender, to undergoing a process to reassign your gender, or having completed it.

However the protected characteristic remains Gender Reassignment not Identity. A fine line to draw but given the importance of the issue clarity and correct terminology are paramount. Thank her for her input and move on.