Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

Is it ok for society to redefine tickling as murder, and then say that there is no need to investigate or prosecute murder as statistically most of it is trivial? Would we maybe need another word for "deliberately killing someone"?

@SeldomHere

Trans boy? No such thing. That’s just a biological female in fantasy land.

She’s a biological female who’s never going to be a biological male.

She is thriving. She isn’t some messed up teen who doesn’t know if she’s a boy or a girl. The latter type needing far more psychological intervention than my niece ever would.

Why does "woman" need to be a "sex-based category"? Why do we need rigid, socially and legally enforced "sex categories"?

This has been explained to you on this thread. This has been explained by GC women over and over and over.

For someone who believes in respecting identities you sure aren't respectful of our reality-based, biology based 'identities'. It is has been explained to you why it is important to retain women as a class based on their sex, GC women have explained this over and over. We actually have a world of data and evidence of why this matters, and the harm and disadvantage done to women by removing women as a class of people based on their sex.

You are ignoring all this because you have to ignore it. To accept it would mean you would have to change your position. And then all you have left are insults.

I've been trying to keep up with this thread while trying to programme my wolves, drink my breakfast and barter a lorry... oh, sorry, words have clear definitions, don't they? Walk my dogs, eat my dinner and sell a car.

See how confusing it gets, @SeldomHere when you screw around with what words mean?

Anyway, pulling out the things that especially bugged me...

Why does "woman" need to be a "sex-based category"? Why do we need rigid, socially and legally enforced "sex categories"?
I've already explained that one once. Your brain clearly blanked it.

Because not all people want to be resistricted by your rigid binary and feel much more comfortable with different labels.
It's not 'our rigid binary'.
Sex is biology's rigid binary (with a tiny % of DSDs in the middle, usually leading to infertility). Like it or not, you have the genetic code you have been dealt. I couldn't decide to be a man tomorrow, not when every cell in my body is XX. I could present as a man and call myself Harold and ask people to say 'he', but I'm stuck with the biology I was dealt at conception.

As opposed to your need to impose your linguistic framework on trans people?
See above. You are arguing for full-on PoMo madness here. To suit your argument, you're trying to redefine words which we need, for legal reasons never mind basic descriptive ones. You can't have those words. They are already taken.

The words "man" and "woman" are a social construct, not biological reality.
And the word "marriage" was the name which had been given to a union between a man and a woman for the purpose of making babies.
The words man and woman describe material reality, the sex binary (see above about biology). Marriage, as you seem to be failing to realise, describes something that people created and that people can, therefore, change. I am not the only person on this thread to make this basic observation to you

And in response to me asking, fairly politely, not to be called 'cis':
Can you desist from saying "transwomen" instead of "trans women", and from policing whether trans women are referred to as women?
You're the one changing the rules and the meanings, not me, so it's up to you to convince me that you're right and I'm wrong. You're not doing a very good job of it so far.

It’s a strange thing, to have to signal your comfort to other people. Why do they need to know I’m “comfortable” with being a woman? They don’t get to know my comfort in relation to anything else.

I don’t like to signal pronouns because it’s part of an ideology I don’t agree with (namely the idea that we have a gender identity which does or does not match the sex we get assigned at birth. Disagree with all of that). But also I’m in a male dominated career and I don’t want to activate stereotype threat in myself nor do I want to trigger people’s unconscious biases.

if I strongly state “I’m a woman , she her” then it’s more likely that people around me will activate their stereotypes about women. I don’t want to be judged on my work by my sex.

@SeldomHere

Oh people most certainly do care. If they didn’t we wouldn’t have a whole forum dedicated to gender. We wouldn’t be required to put silly pronouns onto emails (which I don’t do) etc etc etc.

Like I said it’s a good thing she hasn’t got anybody around her who buys into this nonsense. She can never be a boy. Just like she could never be a cat.

Therefore she accepts herself for who she is, a female!…..This being the mentally healthier option more grounded in reality.

As I've said, it sounds like you need to do some more reading:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tavistock-gender-clinic-converting-gay-children-tz8cs77p3
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/04/gender-identity-clinic-whistleblower-wins-damages
www.bbc.com/news/health-51806962
www.bbc.com/news/uk-56539466

Learn to follow context please. We're talking about non-trans women who put pronouns after their name or in their bio.

She can, in fact, be a boy.

Because being a "boy" or a "girl" are both a matter of gender rather than "biological sex"

Again, what makes you think anyone would care to "manipulate her into thinking she was born into the wrong sex"?

that simply means they feel comfortable as a woman

Why though, if they are a biological male?

yet we are asked to relinquish our ability to fight the sex-based mistreatment. That is an unacceptably high price to pay.

It is, and it's completely unreasonable to expect it.

Also, I'd love to see what evidence you have of this:
How is GC women voting for the Republican party to "reign in the trans agenda", empowering Republicans to achieve those goals, irrelevant?
Where are the opinion polls that GC women are voting Republican?! Was there a poll done where women were asked if they are gender critical and what party they're voting for? Can't wait for you to show us where that is! I'm disengaging now, it's too ridiculous, good luck with your A levels.

No. It. Doesn't.

That's the strawman you keep projecting. Over and over. In reality, they're the ones that have it right.

If they're a woman, and say they use she/her pronouns, that simply means they feel comfortable as a woman, and feel comfortable with people using she/her pronouns.

Nothing. Else.

but there’s really nothing there, is there?

No.

If she'd rather be a boy, he should be free to be a boy.

But she can't be a boy. She can wear "boys" clothes. She can play football from noon until night. Heck She can even use a "boys" name for all I'd care. But she can't actually be a boy, any more than she can be a cat.

That's all we're saying, that's all we're asking for. To give people the option to choose.

You like analogies. Should I have the "option to choose" my chronological age? I don't want to be in my 40s, I want to be considered retirement age and collect my pension. I identify as being 25 or so years older than the boring rigid chronological time society has imposed on me with its constructs. Will that be ok?

@penpalgal

Wow, that’s fascinating the Tavistock have picked up on that. Somebody like my niece could be so easily manipulated into thinking she was born into the wrong sex!!!

Nar…. She’s just a butch lesbian. Nothing more to it. She describes herself as a butch female who fancies other females.

I'm not the one who brought up American politics here, so…

If she'd rather be a boy, he should be free to be a boy.
Except it's not possible to change sex.

And this is why we are told that the definition of us must now be changed to some pure abstract gender identity which is like a religious belief in that it is not falsifiable but everybody is ordered to have one and if they have not transitioned they are ordered to have the 'cis' belief.

It's not possible to change sex, the demographic group which most people still call 'women' is discriminated on the basis of sex and in some places in the world legally oppressed on that basis, and that demographic group has the right to name itself.

Currently some work hard to get that right removed. It's not the worst thing that is caused by the gender identity ideology, but it is the foundational problem with it, because it is not possible to change sex and it is not really possible to transition out of that sex-based mistreatment, yet we are asked to relinquish our ability to fight the sex-based mistreatment. That is an unacceptably high price to pay.

I can see what they would think that, but that's because they haven't thought about it in depth. They just think 'I have no problem with my identity, therefore my pronouns are x/x'. What a lot of them don't realise is that by playing along, they are opting into an ideology that reinforces gender steroptypes rather than sees the complexity. If they are a woman, and say they are she/her, they are opting into the idea that 'woman' is a gender only, and that it means liking high heels and fluffy kittens.

Nature doesn’t give us the option to choose. I’d rather have smaller boobs than the melons I’ve got, but hey ho … having seen what a mastectomy looks like, and having more pressing concerns than a breast reduction, I manage with what I’ve got.

Circular arguments, ad hominems - I’d hoped that I might find something to enlighten me from the genderist viewpoint, but there’s really nothing there, is there? Shame.

@penpalgal
> Except it's not possible to change sex.

1. We're talking about changing gender, not changing sex.

1. Sex actually can be altered to some extent through hormones and surgery.

> that homophobic parents are bringing their children in because they'd rather have a trans child than a gay child

This is nonsense. Homophobic parents are near universally also transphobic, and the opposite is usually true; trans people often have their parents ask them things like "can't you just be gay?", when it actually isn't the same thing at all.

If she'd rather be a boy, he should be free to be a boy.

Why did you change the pronouns, if they are not connected to sex role stereotypes?