Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

> Ones who have suffered horrific FGM

Middle-class British white women, whom your movement overwhelmingly consists of, suffer no such thing.

Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

Going back to the original question - I am now 65. I have never needed pronouns in my life so far so fail to see why I need them now.

Your reading comprehension needs a massive overhaul. That isn't what I said at all. In fact, it is so far from what I said that I am wondering if you are stupid or disingenuous.

There is, as you should know, far more to genetics than the sex chromosomes. There has been a lot of academic work on the inheritance of personality traits. You can even see it in non-human animals.

You need to get off the internet and out into reality.

I will save my empathy for women. Ones who have suffered horrific FGM, not men who have actively decided to mutilate themselves by cosmetically having their own penis’ removed. That’s really, really not a shared struggle is it?

That's not true at all, but I guess it's no surprise you can't see shared struggles when you're fundamentally incapable of empathizing with anyone else.

This mindset is precisely the issue here. Why, exactly, do you need to separate trans women from women for women to have rights?
Oh fgs, because we have nothing in common with trans women. Nothing. Why do you expect feminists to look after everyone? We are not your mum.

Because trans women are men

Well unless you're arguing for collapsing all categories and having no BLM, no attention specifically to anti-semitism etc then I think you already know the answer to this.

That's really very underhand to selectively quote what I said in order to misrepresent it. You said that TW and W face the same discriminations. I said that employees don't always want to employ women as they worry they might get pregnant and leave - this will never be used as a reason not to employ a TW.

TW face discrimination for entirely separate reasons.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
> If you don't separate men from women you don't have women's rights though do you?

This mindset is precisely the issue here. Why, exactly, do you need to separate trans women from women for women to have rights?

Do you think insisting on completely excluding and alienating trans women is any way to work towards addressing shared issues?
Do you think it is possible to work with people who are actively trying to change the definition of woman in law and attack any women who protest? In any case these shared issues (if they exist and I doubt it) are a very small part of what feminism is about. We have bigger fish to fry. Sort out your own problems and stop expecting women to do the work for you.

Hear hear. So very many women have been turned by the massive overreach of trans activism from #bekind allies to staunch defenders of their own boundaries and rights, to active feminists.

But that's precisely part of a problem. Do you think insisting on completely excluding and alienating trans women is any way to work towards addressing shared issues?
So many GC people are even willing to burn down women's rights just to maintain the separation, like the ones actively working with the conservative right.

If you don't separate men from women you don't have women's rights though do you? TW have nothing more in common with me than any other male so it makes no sense to group me with the and then think we can somehow use that utterly random grouping to address the oppression which biological females face. The TW who feel alienated by that (and lets not pretend it's all TW) need to look at their male privilege tbh. If someone feels alienated by an oppressed group to which they do not belong, working to promote their rights, I think that is something they need to work on.

Only if you're very selective with your dictionaries. Here is the definition from one of the Oxford dictionaries: adult human female

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/woman?q=Woman

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
> TW are protected like other men.
This is nonsense.

> a person recruiting for a job is not going to choose a man over a TW
Do you seriously think trans women do not face employment discrimination.

By the way do we have the full bingo card yet?

@Zerogravity

Indeed. I also didn’t know that hardcore activists were trying to get the consent laws changed 😮. Unbelievable.

Firstly Trans women are male and feminism is for women

secondly the behaviour of TRA is wholly & completely to blame for womens stance. Talk about being given a inch and taking the proverbial mile! All beeee kiiiiind got women was men stomping all over everything women had as their own. They have no one to blame but themselves for the pushback

But that's precisely part of a problem. Do you think insisting on completely excluding and alienating trans women is any way to work towards addressing shared issues?

So many GC people are even willing to burn down women's rights just to maintain the separation, like the ones actively working with the conservative right.

One of the go-to attack lines against trans women is attacking them for insufficiently feminine behavior or appearance.
Trans women absolutely face many of the same attacks and expectations typically directed at women.

There are a vast array of ways in which women are attacked which absolutely do not and can never apply to trans women. There are very, very few points of similarity. Women are more likely to die in a car crash and in many medical procedures - TW are protected like other men. Women are disadvantaged in our society because of their ability to be pregnant, birth and lactate - not TW obviously as they can't and people know they can't (i.e. a person recruiting for a job is not going to choose a man over a TW fearing that the TW might get pregnant and leave but that happens to women all the time). Women are raised to be compliant and 'kind' - not TW largely as despite their identity they present as male. I think it is a fallacy to pretend that the pressures we feel are the same as many female pressures come from their biology and societal overlays on that. TW have no more in common biolgically with a woman than any other man does.

While also simultaneously facing pressure to transition and conform to the expectations imposed on men.

Well that may be right because yes, as this acknowledges, most TW are clearly men so that would be an issue for them as it is for other men. Personally I would like to breakdown societal expectations on both men and women and I think gender ideology is entrenching it.

It wouldn't be a problem if transactivism wasn't actively trying to stop women from having their own spaces and language.

@janeseymour78
> That isn't a criticism or a gotcha, just a fact. Ive heard of men becoming trans women and being shocked by what life is like as a woman, harrassment and everything that goes with it.

I think a big part of the problem is that rather than work to challenge these issues together, the critical mass of the GC movements insist on completely pushing trans women away altogether.

@Zerogravity

I have to be honest it’s made people swing the other way and actively become transphobic. Had this discussion with my friends and they agreed.

A few years ago it was just a case of live and let live but that’s changed now. The aggressive trans activism has totally changed the landscape and made us ACTIVELY transphobic.

Not one of us was even remotely embarassed to admit it. Transphobic and proud here.

Nope sorry. Most of the people I know would say a woman was a female. Probably whilst looking at me like I'd lost the plot for asking.

The words woman and female are taken. Transwomen will have to find their own. How about... hmm... transwomen?

passing trans women in particular have little issue being commonly regarded as women in their everyday lives.
Interesting that you differentiate between passing (a small minority of a minority) and non-passing. Still doesn't they have a right to women's spaces.