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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

466 replies

janeseymour78 · 21/05/2022 18:42

By this, I mean I have friends who are 100% pro pronouns as a show of support and we've had our debates, and then there are others who say it is unhealthy to reinforce stereotypes, eg. By using them on work signatures

For me though, adding she/her pronouns to everything and even having being asked what they are verbally, she/her feels alien to me in a visceral way. I'm curious about this because I have several friends who don't share that feeling at all.

Im GC and I don't believe people are binary. I have elements of feminity and masculinity that whatever else that form who I am. I know I'm a woman, I have endometriosis so I'm painfully aware, as well as all the other reasons women are made aware of their sex.

It comes down to adding 'she/her' to everything would not feel right to me, as though it didn't reflect me. It would like I was falsely reinforcing my womanhood when I don't live my life that way or feel that way. Am I making sense? Do others feel this way?

OP posts:
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Babdoc · 21/05/2022 22:25

Because “gender” is entirely stereotypes! It has no basis in the physical reality of sex, how can it be anything else?

KarenLovesRosario · 21/05/2022 22:21

Not alien so much as self obsessed narcissism.
I'm not playing

SeldomHere · 21/05/2022 22:18

SpeedofaSloth · 21/05/2022 22:16

I think it's virtue signalling, TBH. I choose not to engage, I look female, have a female name and work in a male dominated profession, nothing will ever make me add anything to my email signature suggesting I identify wholeheartedly with feminine gender-based stereotypes.

You keep making up that part about "stereotypes". Who said anything about stereotypes?

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 21/05/2022 22:17

This use of pronouns is a bit of nonsense that I will never use. Everyone knows women are she/her and men are he/him. Anyone who thinks they're so special that people have to use special pronouns for them is just advertising their stupidity.

SpeedofaSloth · 21/05/2022 22:16

I think it's virtue signalling, TBH. I choose not to engage, I look female, have a female name and work in a male dominated profession, nothing will ever make me add anything to my email signature suggesting I identify wholeheartedly with feminine gender-based stereotypes.

SeldomHere · 21/05/2022 22:15

IcakethereforeIam · 21/05/2022 22:04

I could ask them that? It seems we are at an impasse.

The difference is that you misgendering (and no, I don't care if you call it "correctly sexing") people is somewhat equivalent to verbally stabbing at them. It is something directly concerning their person specifically.

Whereas trans and non-binary merely existing around you, and asking you for some basic accommodation... Why would that make you "uncomfortable" if not because of your prejudice?

nepeta · 21/05/2022 22:12

Pronouns come from the gender identity ideology.
This is clear because 'they, them' exists as a singular pronoun.
As people using that are in reality either male or female, too, then consistency requires that 'she, her', and 'he, him' cannot refer to biological sex, either, but must also refer to some abstract identity.

So on the theoretical level we are supporting the gender identity concept by telling what our preferred pronouns are.
That's the dilemma for me.
At the same time I know that most people don't think that this is what they are doing:
They try to make it easier for transgender people not to be 'misgendered' by being accurately sexed.

This is a little like all men now being asked if they might be pregnant in the NHS (what I have heard, anyway), just so that the vanishingly few trans men don't feel singled out if they are asked that before an x-ray, say.
So vast, vast majorities must change everything about their own gender definitions and about what others believe their sex to be, in order for one small group to be validated.

Perhaps this is what the society wishes to do?
But other small and marginalised minorities do not get these types of accommodations, so there must be a rank order that determines who gets to change language etc.

maslinpan · 21/05/2022 22:10

I was walking past our sixth form college the other day, and saw a young woman whose pronoun badge said "they/it". I just can't imagine wanting people to refer to me as "it", that's really masochistic. I felt very sad for her.

SeldomHere · 21/05/2022 22:08

CoastalWave · 21/05/2022 22:07

I think this is all getting beyond a joke now.

Girls are girls, boys are boys. For the 0.001 % (or whatever it is) of people who GENUINELY have some sort of medical condition from birth that means their parents decided they should be a boy, when actually they got it wrong , those people have my utmost sympath but I can't see why the whole world is starting to revolve around them.

Most of them are just teens/20's somethings desperate for attention. In my day there were goths/emos/beautiful people/geeks/metal heads etc etc. That's all disappeared. It's now just this nonsense.

I'm proud of being a woman and I'm sorry, but I'm not saying 'they' for anyone. It's ridiculous. It's either he or she. (and if you're a woman who'd rather be known as a he, fine, whatever, I'll go with it, but you're still a women the same way a bird is still a bird not a worm.

How are gendered pronouns any less of a social convention than gendered clothing, if you don't mind me asking?

janeseymour78 · 21/05/2022 22:07

I suppose it comes down to, I'm a woman, I know this, it dictates the way I live my life most days. Taking the safest route home. Having to take time off work for endometriosis. Etc.

But I don't spend all day thinking about the fact I'm a woman. I am just a human being living life. It is the obsession with defining who you are that is the issue. I'm just me. I've lived this long without all the naval gazing and I don't need to start now. I'm probably not putting this very well but it's complex.

OP posts:
CoastalWave · 21/05/2022 22:07

I think this is all getting beyond a joke now.

Girls are girls, boys are boys. For the 0.001 % (or whatever it is) of people who GENUINELY have some sort of medical condition from birth that means their parents decided they should be a boy, when actually they got it wrong , those people have my utmost sympath but I can't see why the whole world is starting to revolve around them.

Most of them are just teens/20's somethings desperate for attention. In my day there were goths/emos/beautiful people/geeks/metal heads etc etc. That's all disappeared. It's now just this nonsense.

I'm proud of being a woman and I'm sorry, but I'm not saying 'they' for anyone. It's ridiculous. It's either he or she. (and if you're a woman who'd rather be known as a he, fine, whatever, I'll go with it, but you're still a women the same way a bird is still a bird not a worm.

SeldomHere · 21/05/2022 22:06

janeseymour78 · 21/05/2022 22:04

Like I said in my previous message, it doesn't feel alien as part of normal conversation. Example, if someone else is talking about me just out of earshot and another person refers to me as 'she', or 'her'. No problem. I am a woman and have been referred to his way my whole life.

It only becomes an issue when people suggest (and social media platforms suggest) I should add my.pronouns. When I am at a hobby class and they ask my pronouns (this has happened twice lately) - and if my workplace asked me to do this and I had to see it in my signature every day.

So she/her/they is all fine. He would make no sense - I'm not a man.

Do you think "she/they" would work better for you then? If you were to include pronouns on your profile, that is.

janeseymour78 · 21/05/2022 22:04

SeldomHere · 21/05/2022 22:00

This, unironically.

@janeseymour78 Does it also feel alien when people use "she" to refer to you? Do you think you'd feel more comfortable if they used "he" or "they" instead?

Would "she/they" feels less alien? Or "they/them"?

Note that none of these don't "mean" anything about you, aside from which of these pronouns feel comfortable to you.

Like I said in my previous message, it doesn't feel alien as part of normal conversation. Example, if someone else is talking about me just out of earshot and another person refers to me as 'she', or 'her'. No problem. I am a woman and have been referred to his way my whole life.

It only becomes an issue when people suggest (and social media platforms suggest) I should add my.pronouns. When I am at a hobby class and they ask my pronouns (this has happened twice lately) - and if my workplace asked me to do this and I had to see it in my signature every day.

So she/her/they is all fine. He would make no sense - I'm not a man.

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 21/05/2022 22:04

I could ask them that? It seems we are at an impasse.

SeldomHere · 21/05/2022 22:01

IcakethereforeIam · 21/05/2022 20:57

If your innate sense of gender identity is so strong why do 'they' have such meltdowns when people forget/don't know/don't care and default to reality? If you are a woman who believes they're a man or vice versa then surely that's something you carry within you! Why the desperation for validation from family, friends and complete strangers.
It's all about the validation. Is it because it's not strong. It's because they know it's drivel and a performance.

Why do you insist on being disrespectful and doing something you know makes people uncomfortable?

SeldomHere · 21/05/2022 22:00

420Bruh · 21/05/2022 18:49

Maybe you're non-binary

This, unironically.

@janeseymour78 Does it also feel alien when people use "she" to refer to you? Do you think you'd feel more comfortable if they used "he" or "they" instead?

Would "she/they" feels less alien? Or "they/them"?

Note that none of these don't "mean" anything about you, aside from which of these pronouns feel comfortable to you.

boatahoy · 21/05/2022 21:38

I've managed to get by for 40plus years without announcing my preferred pronouns to everyone so I refuse to start now. It's obvious by my name and to anyone who can see me that I'm female.

JellySaurus · 21/05/2022 21:20

Jewel1968 · 21/05/2022 20:37

Would it (or does it) bother you if someone thought you were not the sex you are? I have a friend who sometimes gets mistaken for a man and it does bother her. However she is GC.

I guess it might bother me if someone thought I was a man ( I think I might see it as not being seen as attractive) but putting my pronouns on my email would not change it.

I think if pushed at work I will either argue that I don't want to declare my sex or I will put - she/her/he/him/they/them - and see what they make of that.

Not at all. I'm not particularly feminine in my presentation, and when I had short hair and wore bomber jacket, jeans and men's shoes (yeah, wide feet as well), i was frequently assumed to be male from behind. I've been challenged in women's toilets as well. But the moment I speak out turn around the other person has recognised that I am female. And always apologises.

I have never been offended by these mistakes. People see what they see and I am what I am. I was miserable for years because I wasn't dainty and feminine like my classmates, and I was teased for it, too. But I have to love the skin I'm in because it's the only one I've got, allergies and scars and all. What's the point in being upset because someone misreads the social cues and body standards? That's their problem, not mine. Of course a woman should feel able to challenge a person she's suspects may not be a woman.

Oh, and to add to that my name is uniformly taken to be masculine in this country (feminine in my parents' country of origin), so I get double-takes when meeting someone for the first time after email conversations. Not offended. Amused!

LeniGray · 21/05/2022 21:08

tabbycatstripy · 21/05/2022 19:25

I’m not doing it. It’s unnecessary. I wouldn’t make statements about my physical condition to support people with other physical conditions. I don’t state my race, sexuality or faith. My ‘gender identity’ (if I had one) is none of anyone else’s business and I am female to anyone with eyes.

^ That 100%. I’m not doing it.

IcakethereforeIam · 21/05/2022 20:57

If your innate sense of gender identity is so strong why do 'they' have such meltdowns when people forget/don't know/don't care and default to reality? If you are a woman who believes they're a man or vice versa then surely that's something you carry within you! Why the desperation for validation from family, friends and complete strangers.
It's all about the validation. Is it because it's not strong. It's because they know it's drivel and a performance.

janeseymour78 · 21/05/2022 20:52

Noonado · 21/05/2022 20:25

I don’t feel comfortable about declaring my pronouns on my email signature, because it would be a confirmation of an innate sense of gender (according to current orthodoxy) that I don’t feel I have. Like the OP, I know I’m a woman because of my biology and my lived experiences, and have no problem with other people referring to me as a “she/her”, but then again “they/them” wouldn’t bother me at all, and although I’d find “he/him” a bit surprising, it wouldn’t upset me or trigger any dysphoria.

Unfortunately I missed the talk from Stonewall they had at work when the option of pronouns was introduced, but from what I gather they are important for people who DO have a strong, innate sense of a gender identity, and as I don’t, declaring them feels like crashing someone else’s party.

This pretty much sums up how I feel. It wouldn't bother me if someone called me they/them necessarily, although I would see it as an assumption/way of them attempting to be inclusive and therefore buying into the ideology.

I don't mind being called she/her, it's how people have always referred to me. As I am a woman, it is fine and makes sense as part of the course of a normal conversation. But reinforcing it in any way just feels wrong.

OP posts:
janeseymour78 · 21/05/2022 20:48

Jewel1968 · 21/05/2022 20:37

Would it (or does it) bother you if someone thought you were not the sex you are? I have a friend who sometimes gets mistaken for a man and it does bother her. However she is GC.

I guess it might bother me if someone thought I was a man ( I think I might see it as not being seen as attractive) but putting my pronouns on my email would not change it.

I think if pushed at work I will either argue that I don't want to declare my sex or I will put - she/her/he/him/they/them - and see what they make of that.

I have never been mistaken for a man and doubt I ever will be as outwardly I look feminine - so it is difficult for imagine.

OP posts:
Jewel1968 · 21/05/2022 20:37

Would it (or does it) bother you if someone thought you were not the sex you are? I have a friend who sometimes gets mistaken for a man and it does bother her. However she is GC.

I guess it might bother me if someone thought I was a man ( I think I might see it as not being seen as attractive) but putting my pronouns on my email would not change it.

I think if pushed at work I will either argue that I don't want to declare my sex or I will put - she/her/he/him/they/them - and see what they make of that.

Noonado · 21/05/2022 20:25

I don’t feel comfortable about declaring my pronouns on my email signature, because it would be a confirmation of an innate sense of gender (according to current orthodoxy) that I don’t feel I have. Like the OP, I know I’m a woman because of my biology and my lived experiences, and have no problem with other people referring to me as a “she/her”, but then again “they/them” wouldn’t bother me at all, and although I’d find “he/him” a bit surprising, it wouldn’t upset me or trigger any dysphoria.

Unfortunately I missed the talk from Stonewall they had at work when the option of pronouns was introduced, but from what I gather they are important for people who DO have a strong, innate sense of a gender identity, and as I don’t, declaring them feels like crashing someone else’s party.

JoodyBlue · 21/05/2022 20:17

OP you do make sense. For me it reinforces the false idea that there is a binary - feminine and masculine and people fall into one or both or neither. It disallows the idea that people change. It also gaslights people and young people in particular in disbelieving what they see and being able to articulate that. Which is a safeguarding risk. I have been flabbergasted by the number of women I have previously held respect for rolling over for this. When I see pronouns announced now, to me it indicates an inability to think through a complex argument I'm afraid.