Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

@IcakethereforeIam

I was religious kid but was very private about it. The following poem was meaningful to me as I felt quite sinful and bad for keeping my beliefs private.I haven't thought about it in years but this thread has me recalling it and thinking that with a few good-natured edits it would be an appropriate response to the coercive shame-inducing dogmatism being peddled by pronoun evangelists

Without edits:

"I need not shout my faith.
Thrice eloquent
Are quiet trees and the green listening sod;
Hushed are the stars, whose power is never spent;
The hills are mute: yet how they speak of God!"

With edits

"Females need not shout our sex.
Thrice eloquent
Are quiet trees and the green listening sod;
Hushed are the stars, whose power is never spent;
Even when our lips are mute: how our very selves speak of womanhood!

As far as I can see, it's just another stick with which to beat women. When I dropped DD at uni, there were lots of older students helping out. A lot of the young women (obviously women, looked like women, dressed like women, sounded like women) had labels with their names and 'she/her'. I don't think a single lad bothered with 'he/him'.

It was the first time I'd seen this pronoun bullshit in the wild, other than a single 'she/her' sign-off on an email.

Historically, other people have decided on your pronoun. They look, they make a decision about sex (not gender) without (usually) consciously thinking about it, and go from there.

There are all sort of aspects of my identity that are actually real that I don’t announce in my email signature. Mainly on the basis that nobody cares or needs to know.

So if I’m not going to announce any of the things that are real, why would I announce a gender identity, when I don’t even have one?

@IcakethereforeIam "...If you are a woman who believes they're a man or vice versa then surely that's something you carry within you! Why the desperation for validation from family, friends and complete strangers.It's all about the validation... because it's not strong. It's because they know it's drivel and a performance."

That is absolutely spot on because if TWAW then being a woman should be like air that you breath - nothing needs to be said because it just is.

Well, it wasn't fabricated as this defence of it indicates: mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/statement-in-response-to-mail-on-sunday-and-sunday-times-coverage-of-dfe-guidance/

I don't find pronouns themselves uncomfortable, but I do find it weird if I'm asked for them. Even if it's only filling in a form online.

This is the best reply. Totally sums up how I feel about it all.

@user375242
> gender scale, which was based on stereotypes like action man and Barbie

Literally the only circumstance where I ever see anything of that sort, it's from GC people clinging to a single slide from a single presentation from whoever knows where (such things are easily fabricated), as if it were the very foundation of trans identity itself.

It's not.

Gender identity does not have to align with gender expression at all. Gender identity is not at all dependent on "stereotypes". Butch trans women exist.

It just doesn’t bother me at all.

The labels I'm referring to are the labels of "man" and "woman".

I think a lot of the weirdness of it isn't from the sex reference, it's because of the grammatical element. Listing a bit of grammar after your name is weird. "Hi, My Name is Mangey, and I am first person singular." Listing a bit meant to facilitate more efficient communication is counter-productive.

I don't understand how current gender ideology isn't about stereotypes though? I'm genuinely open to being educated otherwise. Mermaids once published a gender scale, which was based on stereotypes like action man and Barbie, they said to identify transgender children as those who play with toys for the opposite gender. What are those without stereotypes? When people I know have changed gender, they have changed their name and their clothes and their hair. This suggests that dresses, high heels and long hair is only appropriate for women and crew cuts, chinos and shirts for men. The non binary flag is half pink and half blue (stereotypes). Without stereotypes there is no gender.

You're the only ones who bring up anything about a "stereotype".

Yes, I completely agree. This is why I don't like being called a CIS woman too, because from a pro pronoun perspective that means I identify with the false stereotypes of femininity and I don't and never have done. I identify as a woman but from a gender perspective I suppose I am non binary, but I do not wish to be referred to as a them. It is clunky and impersonal to me.

In the unlikely event that someone mistakes me for a man, I literally do not care.

If someone mistakes me for a Stonewall supporter I’d be quite upset.

Adding pronouns as part of your email signature is a political statement that you agree with the aggressive, sexist and homophobic lobbying carried out by Stonewall and Mermaids activists.

It isn’t something I would do and it is unethical for employers to demand their employees make political statements that have nothing to do with their job.

How are gendered pronouns any less of a social convention than gendered clothing, if you don't mind me asking?

Because pronouns are about how the speaker perceives others. The only place where they are anything to do with social convention is in the old convention that the masculine gender is used to encompass both sexes. The default masculine is social convention.

A man deciding to wear a dress is expressing himself by going against social convention. He is exercising his right to freedom of expression. A man deciding that others must refer to him using feminine pronouns is depriving them of their freedom of expression.

Yes, yes they should. I've no issue whatsoever with people assuming I am a adult female, who uses the commonly known pronoun she/her, which has been commonplace for centuries.

Assume away! Stereotype away, not a bother to me at all whatsoever.

Proving my initial point. Night night.

This ^^ again and again and again.

In that Peter Boghossian video. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4549136-peter-boghossian

..a student is apparently so triggered and offended by reading the statement 'There are only 2 genders' that they have to go home and, as they used to say, have a fit of the vapours, because it undermined their whole identity.

Why should anyone assume "she" are pronouns you prefer? Should they guess based on stereotypes?

I can understand where you are coming from.

I have a female name, I am a outwardly feminine woman, nobody who walks this planet would think I am in any way male.

Why do I suddenly need to announce the obvious 🤷🏻‍♀️

Literally just a matter of which labels and pronouns feel more comfortable to you. Why does it need to be anything more than that?