A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

Top post, @RinklyRomaine. I worry that the endgame here is to argue that breastfeeding is not a female activity and so employers and others wouldn't be guilty of sex discrimination against women if they did something that made it difficult for mothers to breastfeed, because a few males could be found who weren't disadvantaged. I have a feeling there was a case on these lines in the US already.

So are they taking prolactin? Is that even available synthetically? Surely if it were, it would be recommended for women who struggle to lactate?

What risks to women arise from the male appropriation of female biology specifically in the context of breastfeeding?

A male or even female partner who is unaware of the valuable role a partner can play in holding, cuddling, burping, slinging, taking baby for walks and naps so that mum can physically recover and rest is displaying a narcissistic approach to their relationship and being a parent.

I would be concerned about the relationship as a whole.

childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/05/10/stop-using-us-as-props/

Stop Using Us As Props
Much more frequently, Children of Transitioners are appearing in the media as part of our father’s narrative. It’s uncomfortable to watch a younger version of yourself put through this, with their boundaries, privacy and dignity totally disregarded by our narcissistic dads. One day these children will look back at what their fathers put in the public domain, and it will further complicate their feelings around their father’s transition.

Those pictures were taken in a hospital. This newborn is hours old. This is a stage where newborns are learning to latch, have biological imperative to find the nipple and know only their mother. Left alone on her body, the newborn will move themselves on mums body to feed.

Each tiny feed take masses of energy. Vast amounts more than bottle feeding. Colostrum is unique and filled with energy. There is no way this man is producing colostrum. This 'milk' is not suitable.

Formula exists if the mother doesn't breast feed. Dribbles of drug laced milk (forget the domperidone, this man has said he hasn't stopped his cross sex synthetic hormones) are not a substitute. As a PP said, if mum wants to BF, his need for validation will likely ruin the baby's latch, her supply. She needs to feed often in this first 3 days to get her milk in. If she doesn't want to, his "milk" will not be suitable and they need to go straight to formula. There is no benefit to the infant in this situation. There just isn't.

We know mums are policed to within an inch of our lives during pregnancy and breastfeeding. Coffee, a wine, ibuprofen. The pain relief we need during and after birth. The drugs he is taking are not the same as the natural levels of natural birth hormones in a woman's body and I don't know how anyone can try to compare the two.

We know men often become abusive during pregnancy and breastfeeding when mum is most vulnerable. We know controlling, narcy men often try to control breastfeeding as a form of abuse. We absolutely know by their own admission that many men interested in cross gender identity have pregnancy, menstruation and lactation fetishes. That's not controversial, they are all over the place talking about it. He says himself he got a kick from it. Why is any sane woman (or man) defending this?

Sorry I was lazy with my quoting.

I don't think that a lesbian co-parenting relationship is a comparable situation. The non-birthing mother would need to protocol to induce lactation in the first place, but would surely then be able to feed without needing any medical assistance? She already naturally produces all the right hormones. Whereas a TW would continue to take hormones at the very least throughout the period of breastfeeding. The infant exposure isn't the same.

Why are people comparing TW breastfeeding to two lesbian parental sharing breastfeeding? Whether the latter is seen as 'natural' or not, at least the baby would be feeding from female breasts in that situation which are designed to produce milk for a human child. Not all women who share BF with the child's birth mother need drugs to initiate supply either. It can be done by regular intense nipple stimulation and regular use of a pump. If drugs are used, they are rarely long-term as once a supply is initiated, it doesn't always need to be maintained with the use of medication.

I have no first-hand experience of this BTW. It's just what I was told by several lactation consultants.

"Is it common for lesbian mothers who didn't carry the baby to be given lactation drugs?"

I have no idea. I assume it happens because hey are one of the groups the Newman-Goldberg protocol is used with. But I have no idea how many people do this.

But I think we can agree very few TW breastfeed too. Numbers aren't the issue here. If we were concerned about addressing social attitudes to breastfeeding in order to promote it this isn't where you would start - you are quite right about the 2% figure. If we wanted to change that, we'd need to see fewer people who find breastfeeding disgusting in an of itself not worry about people who are repulsed by co-parenting, adoptive mothers or grandmothers relactating, wetnursing, buying milk online, the 2 reported cases of TW lactating or any of the other things which probably only affect a few dozen babies a year anyway.

I have no words.

Other than - no, it won't feel the same for a TM. No matter how hard they try to believe it, they will not experience all the physical responses a woman would whilst feeding a child.

A TW wouldn't be able to produce colostrum. I'm fairly certain that begins to be created in the weeks leading up to birth and again, tailored to baby's specific needs and the environment.

@WarriorN this is good because we are getting much closer to where we disagree.

Your view is that if a man takes domperidone plus prolactin to stimulate milk production that is appropriating female biology.

Whilst if a woman takes the same drugs to stimulate milk production that is performing a biologically appropriate function because she is a woman, albeit not one who has just had a baby through pregnancy e.g. one who has become a parent through adoption or lesbian co-parenting.

Your ethical or political concern is with the male appropriation of female biology.

Whilst I do not see the same risks arising - or at least no one on this thread had told me what risks arise to women from this (they've told me to give me head a wobble, or I have an issue, or I'm fucking offensive etc but they have not answered this question.

So...

What risks to women arise from the male appropriation of female biology specifically in the context of breastfeeding?

It's quite biologically difficult to feed if you have never had a child of your own.

Certain cells are laid down in the breast in the first 6 weeks of feeding. It's easier to re lactate after this than if you've never fed a baby.

It would be unusual for both mothers to be on maternity at the same time and for the same length of time; they may swap but I imagine after a significant period of time. Woman's bodies can take up to two years to fully recover.

Is it common for lesbian mothers who didn't carry the baby to be given lactation drugs? I suspect it's more likely that one mother still has milk from a previous baby and supplements to support the other.

You're not really supposed to supplement within the first 6 weeks unless you are pumping a little as this can reduce mother's longer term supply as detailed above.

I breastfed both my children for over a year, but I'm well aware that I was very lucky that it was easy for me. If it hadn't been, I'd have given them formula, which is what my mother did for both my sibling and me. Doesn't seem to have done either of us any harm. A much better alternative to the unresearched option of putting a male on a shedload of artificial hormones and other drugs and getting a newborn baby to suck on the male's nipple and ingest what comes out.

But then less than 2% of women nourish their children exclusively with breastmilk until weaning them on to solids in this country.

That's an entirely different discussion about the lack of input into bf services and normalising bf.

We don't fund expensive drugs and input to support the males who want to to counter this issue.

Itsreally dangerous for women to argue things are biologically inevitable because natural.

It's really dangerous for women to argue that things are biologically possible because males can pump their body full of drugs to appropriate female biology.

It's also a twisting of the argument. The point of feminism, centring women, is that even with these biological abilities they can also achieve as highly as men with correct support.

I know of a women who extended bf both children (possibly tandem fed) while working her way up to being a consultant. Her husband took the career break to support her. She also had excellent peer support via social media platforms run by lactational consultants.

But it's still, NOTHING to do with any of those arguments.

@hazelbeach surely that is also true for co-breastfeeding lesbian parents? In all 3 cases the parents presumably conclude breastfeeding is additive in terms of bonding/parental MH and well-being. That was the comparison I was making. Not a direct comparison with whether or not I should have fed - you are referring to an earlier post on that point.

I don't think you are comparing like with like here. The alternative to your breast milk was no breast milk at all, so clear benefit for the baby. The alternative to a trans woman's breast milk is the breast milk of the mother. Someone has birthed that baby! There is simply no benefit to the baby in that situation by adding an unquantifiable risk.

I didn't think male breast tissue contained lobules?

You're right, they don't. Male mammary structures remain undeveloped, and only secrete as the result of illness, or as a side effect of drugs.
biologydictionary.net/mammary-glands/

"The male breast structure is nearly identical to the female breast, except that the male breast tissue lacks the specialized lobules, since there is no physiologic need for milk production by males.

Anatomically, the adult breast sits atop the pectoralis muscle (the "pec" chest muscle), which is atop the ribcage."

pathology.jhu.edu/breast/overview#:~:text=The%20male%20breast%20structure%20is,which%20is%20atop%20the%20ribcage.

Female breasts have certainly evolved to produce greater quantities of milk with less intervention than male breasts. But male breasts can and do produce milk.

Can they? I didn't think male breast tissue contained lobules?

Or alternatively "The concentrations of lactose, proteins, and electrolytes in the breast secretion of this man are within the range of colostrum and milk obtained from normal lactating women."

"Stop pretending that men have ever breastfed babies because that is nonsense, or that breastfeeding isn't an 'exclusively female function', because we all know damn well it is."

It isn't an exclusively female function. Men's breasts have always secreted milk in small quantities. They can't typically nourish children exclusively. But then less than 2% of women nourish their children exclusively with breastmilk until weaning them on to solids in this country.

Itsreally dangerous for women to argue things are biologically inevitable because natural. On that basis it has been argued women cannot attend university - it has never been done and when they do get advanced education the stress it places on their reproductive organs renders them infertile. They are clearly not as intelligent as men thus educating them beyond the age of 11 is futile.

I am NOT arguing there are no biological distinctions between the sexes or that TWAW. I just reject simplistic arguments based on what is allegedly natural that some practices should or should not be allowed. You need to work harder than that to justify the persistence of sex-based rights.

The theory is that Female breasts evolved specifically from the immune system (as evidenced by milk antibodies) and as such are linked in with the way the pregnant female immune system develops in perfect harmony with the infant they're carrying.

The placenta also has immune links to protect the foetus from the mothers' immune system.

Women's immune systems are different to mens due to all this, as has been seen in sex linked differences between male and female reactions to covid and also higher rates of autoimmune disease in women.

I did think of lesbian mothers as I wrote it but this really is a moot point as has nothing to do with this specific topic.

And yes we can conclude that adult feelings are prioritised in the specific case of males trying to appropriate women.

As per here childrenoftransitioners.org/

Try queering motherhood thread is worth a look too. But please be forewarned.

Female breasts - in all mammals - have evolved to feed our young.

The end.

Really don't want to discuss it with you any more @PenelopePipPip. It's making me feel a bit nauseous

If we are discussing the article in which a TW describes the first time she fed her daughter, she admits she got sexual satisfaction, after the chemical cascade that went through her body. That's surely a TW fantasy. Cascade of chemicals, indeed!
What I recall of breastfeeding is the sensation in the womb, the tugging as it clamped and unclamped as it shrank back to size. TWs don't have wombs. So what is this milk system connected to? Or do TWs prefer a chemical cascade?

*I don't know what men are 'meant' to do. You are describing this involvement with feeding as if it is exclusively a female function.

Stop pretending that men have ever breastfed babies because that is nonsense, or that breastfeeding isn't an 'exclusively female function', because we all know damn well it is. Men who have a medical condition or take drugs that cause lactation are not producing the equivalent of breast milk that the female body produces.

Babies should not be being used to facilitate male fantasies.

Well, the question is: is it really the same as female breast milk? The biologist I quoted earlier seems to disagree and descirbes it as greasy watery secretions with a cocktail of drug residues and an unknown amount of wound fluid and pus minus the perfectly balanced nutrients and antibodies babies get from actual breast milk.