A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

I'm actually fuming about that NCT article.

For years the message has been that there's nothing sexual about breastfeeding to try and make breastfeeding in public more socially accepted.

Now the NCT are saying half of women find it erotic?!?!

Firstly that does not fit with mine and my friends experiences. I just don't believe it.

Secondly I think it's pretty irresponsible given my point above about public bfing.

Lastly, who the fuck found the uterine contractions caused by breastfeeding orgasmic?!! They were as erotic as period pain. As in not in the slightest !! It hurt like fuck!!

for what reason?

I don't think I have, @PenelopePipPip. Of course it doesn't mean 'all people', nothing ever does. You're avoiding talking about men and women, though. Mothers and fathers. People is being use as an avoidant term to disassociate mothering from females. Mothers and fathers are not the same thing. You are suggesting it's a perfectly natural desire in men. It isn't. My DH is simply a typical example.

The NHS are so thoroughly captured do you honestly believe the medical advice here is on the best interests of the infant? Knowing how BF works?

This has the feel of those mad Americans suggesting that refusing to give children hormones & surgeries will be the cause of Roe being overturned because bodily autonomy. Absolute bollocks.

So weird because my experience was that it hurt like fuck at first because a newborn's latch is fierce.

Nothing a-mazing about it.

Women receive the message they're revolting for bf.

Males who say they're women get applauded for taking drugs to make excretions.

That's a fucked piece of misogyny I'll happily reverse.

La Leche League (at least in the US) states explicitly that they support men who wish to breastfeed. This support is not based on identity, and does not apply to just trans women breastfeeding, but to all males.

The crucial question is, of course, to properly analyse what comes out of a male breast. It is the infant who matters here the most and the health of that infant.

Not that long ago I read about various environmental toxins found in breast milk, so it seems that researchers do study this quite a bit and could easily also analyse dad's milk.

We are always told that breastfeeding women should avoid alcohol and all medications etc.

When it is not a female person doing the breastfeeding, there seems to be much less control or disapproval. Drugs are fine etc...

Penelope I understand your pov and analogy; I can see how you think it plays into the anti bf message for women, but it's victim blaming.

I fed both of mine for between 3-4 years. I picked up on the increasing uncomfortableness from some. I was a receiver of the accusation that I'm doing it for myself. Simply because it's not normalised.

I will never accept that it's ok for males to do this to these children and the mothers of these children.

My concern with the clear revulsion at this particular photograph is that there's such widespread revulsion at breastfeeding generally.

I'm not remotely revolted my breastfeeding. I fed both my babies until they were a year old and they were EBM until the were on solids.

I'm revolted by men stimulating lactation for their own benefit.

"I've never heard a woman say a suckling baby 'feels good' in the way these men do."

I literally just said it in the post above you. It felt a-mazing. Like a massive hit every single time. I used to go woozy and enter a slightly trancelike state each time each of my three babies latched on for at least the first 4-6 weeks. The rush was powerful and then the calm, mildly euphoric state and the buzzy tingly sensation in my nipples was remarkably similar to an orgasm. Not surprisingly because an orgasm is also just a massive dopamine rush.

I'm not embarrassed by this. Its just a neurotransmitter my brain produces in order to enable me to lay down new synaptic pathways as I bond with my baby. I am quite capable of distinguishing this lovely feeling from sexual arousal which also produces the neurotransmitters which stimulate human bonding but for different reasons.

Being able to bond with a newborn baby and being able to experience sexual arousal are chemically similar but psychologically distinct processes. Humans can enjoy both of them without dangerously collapsing them and harming the baby. And babies in my experience are extremely good at unlatching when they are full or sleepy so it can't be easy to use a newborn for gratuitous sexual gratification.

@PenelopePipPip

You do realise there is an ongoing drive to normalise TW giving birth via donor uteruses. This to me seems an glaringly obvious part of that strategy.

A single case study with next to no data published by an obviously biased source is not enough for me to look at this image and think it’s safe. Where is the proof the TW in question exclusively BF even for six weeks? What follow up information do we have that the child was unaffected? Even if they weren’t, that is a single case study, it’s not enough evidence to prove by any kind of medical standard that it’s safe.

You had a very specific situation, and you made your decisions. But it’s not like for like, far from it, and there is far more sinister stuff at work here.

I'm sorry to hear that waitwhat. I'm sure that was an experience for many. I was told this by someone who works in infant feeding so can't comment further.

@PenelopePipPip

I feel like you'll just have an answer for anything. I say 'maybe don't continue if you're getting aroused' and that's apparently controversial or worrying. Yes, the tw in the screenshot probably should. Wtf does that have to do with bio women.

Tbh I doubt they would be bragging on a blog about it anyway.

You can induce la ration in any human with sufficient breast tissue, including biological men. Humans are the only known animal where lactation can be induced without either pregnancy or supplementary hormones and there have been documented evidence of men having sufficient breast milk to pump 1-2 ounces per time.

So totally plausible that a transwomen could do this without anything more than a breast pump.

@RinklyRomaine "And that actually, 'people' who want to nurture their baby will naturally want to suckle?"

No you have reversed what I said. It feels natural to me that people will feel an urge to nurture their babies by breastfeeding does not mean all people. If your DH does not feel that he wants to that is of course his prerogative. As I said above I suspect my Dh would have been happy to although happily was not called upon to do so.

I.e. it is not 'unnatural' or biologically inappropriate for TW to participate in breastfeeding provided both parents agree to it, they take medical advice and the baby thrives. Its just one of many things parents can choose to do.

And the point about squeamishness isn't that this thread promotes it (I assume its a bit of a niche topic?!). Just that to breastfeed I had to open my mind to different ideas about feeding, including the possibility of extending feeding, shared feeding, wet-nursing etc. So my default position where breastfeeding is concerned is to accept that if it is working, the baby is thriving and the parents are happy it is OK. I am not revolted or appalled by the idea of a trans-parent participating in this way although I agree breastfeeding women need lots of other forms of support. And as other people hav e said on this thread women who want to breastfeed in this country are criminally undersupported. But that doesn't mean this is wrong, just breastfeeding support is good.

Suckling stimulates the nipples and feels good, equating that to paedophilia implies that the primary motivation for doing it is sexual

There is a massive difference in adult sexual activity, ie women having their nipples stimulated by their partner, and a woman breastfeeding a newborn. I've never heard a woman say a suckling baby 'feels good' in the way these men do.

Baffles me that you keep finding reasons to normalise this behaviour from grown men. Just like all the other women on facebook threads applauding and pandering to male lactation fantasies.

@holibobs12 "If you have sexual stimulation feeding your baby, it may be time to stop."

Where did I say that? I said it is very normal for women to find their nipples become more sensitive in the weeks after birth as oestrogen levels rise (and they heal from injuries caused by human infants being bloody awful at breastfeeding - having been through the process three times I can accept its a flaw in evolution but don't try and tell me we were designed to do this). Most of us are quite capable of distinguishing the pleasant sensation of an infant latching on from sexual arousal.

This is exactly the kind of response I find really worrying. It encourages women to feel squeamish about breastfeeding. Once you get going many of us find breastfeeding really good, unsurprisingly it should be accompanied with significant dopamine rushes in the first few weeks. Its a powerful experience. And research on men shows their dopamine levels rise in response to skin to skin contact with their babies so even a TW trying to establish breastfeeding may find it creates a strong sense of wellbeing and a desire to nurture.

"So if this was available why was I you'd to give up as my body wasn't producing breast milk? Why is this protocol not available to born women? I wasn't even told this was an option just give the baby formula"

I don't know why you were told to give up and I am sorry that happened to you. I hve no idea if this protocol is ever used in the UK but unlike the US domperidone is prescribed here to simulate milk production - I don't know if this was offered to you but it is an option. AFAIK the case studies being discussed involve TW in the US who will be funding their own healthcare. I only know one pair of trans parents and they definitely did not get much support with breastfeeding on the NHS. I think to be fair to the NHS its equal opportunities shit at breastfeeding support.

Because he said he did! Is that not clear enough for you?

I'm sorry @PenelopePipPip I don't follow. You're saying that people thinking this is abusing an infant are contribution to low rates of BF in general by suggesting that if men are doing it for sexual gratification then women must be, too? Really?

And that actually, 'people' who want to nurture their baby will naturally want to suckle? My DH is an unbelievable dad. His desire to nurture and nourish his children is massive but has NEVER manifested in a desire to put his nipples in their mouth. It has, however, manifested in being an incredible support to his breastfeeding wife. Feeding and nurturing me, making sure I rest, sleep and stay hydrated. Like all decent fathers.

This is so true. The amount of women heartbroken because they don't seem to be producing enough milk but dream of breastfeeding their baby and now a transwoman can do it and everyone cheers and looks past those women who are told to give up and use formula. I'm so sorry you didn't get the right support. 😥

I'm on Breastfeeding support groups on Facebook and have seen multiple women post about how this is amazing and I just have to scroll past and consider leaving the group as so many of them are going that way 😥 it just can't be right, surely. Women can breastfeed, men cannot ...

@PenelopePipPip

But what is the reason for it? You said 'why not?' Well, people have already explained why not.

This has nothing to do with women breastfeeding. I breastfed and do not agree with this, I'm sure many others here are the same.

If you have sexual stimulation feeding your baby, it may be time to stop.

What @RinklyRomaine said. With bells on.

Also there is no need to give the baby formula in this case. The baby has a female parent - a mother - who is buzzing with oxytocin and let-down reflexes and needs to be feeding her baby to get her supply going.

@WarriorN I am by no means a TRA. My concern with the clear revulsion at this particular photograph is that there's such widespread revulsion at breastfeeding generally. I live in an area with one of the lowest rates of breastfeeding in the country - and the UK in turn has the lowest rate of breastfeeding globally. One experienced HV I saw said I was the ONLY woman she had ever seen EBF to 6m. Breastfeeding is not seen as natural by most of the population. So arguing this photograph represents something more unnatural will seem quite weird to many people. For many we're all freaks who probably get off on sticking our nipples into babies mouths. I have had women say to me they couldn't let a baby touch their breasts because they are for sex and many women report finding the return of sexual sensation to their nipples as oestrogen levels rise actively disturbing. Posters upthread are describing a TW reporting similar experiences as a paedophile. This is actively unhelpful to breastfeeding. Suckling stimulates the nipples and feels good, equating that to paedophilia implies that the primary motivation for doing it is sexual and the writer does not describe that.

Personally I identify more closely with the TW who wants to experience breastfeeding than with people with that attitude so in answer to the question why is there a need to do this? I guess my view is why not. It seems very natural to me that people with a strong urge to nurture their young baby would want to suckle it.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g is clearly right about the baby's bodily autonomy - for this to be OK we do have to be sure the baby's wellbeing is protected too. In this respect I am reassured by the fact that even when taking some extremely hardcore drugs my doctors were always pretty sanguine they'd pose little or no risk to any of my children. There are drugs that pose a risk when breastfeeding, opiates in particular. Obviously I have no particular knowledge about the risks associated with cross-sex hormones but in the case studies cited the TW have sought medical advice. But it is a valid concern.

I appreciate your concern about abuse in the relationship between the parents or between parent and child. I do work in research around safeguarding - transwomen breastfeeding oddly is not a variable that turns up in our datasets much! Maybe it could be a soft indicator for risk of abuse. But I would query whether the causal pathway is as psychological as you suggest - i.e. TW are narcissistic and prone to controlling behaviour in relationships. There are all kinds of other factors that are going to make children in households with samesex parents or with transparents more vulnerable including social stigma, impacts on self-esteem. Higher levels of mental health need in same sex parents. Associations between family dysfunction and lower educational attainment. I am sure the association will be there, but explaining the causation will be much harder.

I experienced the opposite. Baby born at the beginning of the pandemic. Minimal visits from health visitors, no support groups or baby weighing clinics.

I fed and fed and fed but my milk had failed and it wasn't picked up because of the lack of support. Was told over and over than 'cluster feeding is normal' and 'the amount of women's milk which fails is tiny'. We ended up in hospital because baby had dropped two centiles and was failure to thrive.