A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

Therefore, I want to know why are we pouring time, money and resources and effort into this and not supporting woman's dire access to bf support.

Anyone who says this isn't centring mens rights needs to get a grip.

One of the most popular protocols for induced lactation in women is successful in 30% of them. I should think a certain amount of serendipity and possibly survivor/publication bias has gone into this case study of one individual.

I'm very pro breastfeeding, but only when it is good for the mother and the child. Usually, when I make this point it's in relation to maternal mental health and I find myself reminding mothers that formula has improved so much it isn't worth struggling on.

In this case, it's the child's health in question. Give chemical juice to get your name in the papers or supply reliable, well researched formula?

This. That cannot be healthy for the baby.

@Waitwhat23 I think so far only @PenelopePipPip has said that it is an echo chamber and has refused to answer any questions from compassionate posters.

Should she wish to return and then announce another abrupt departure, there is a flouncer’s corner where I have no doubt she will feel more welcome:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/flouncers_corner

I haven't RTFT to see if anyone else has said it or if it's been verified but I think this is quite important...

If the story being shared with this picture is actually a picture of a woman bf the baby she carried and gave birth to and people think this is actually the trans woman bf the baby surely that is quite disingenuous.

If the person feeding the baby looked less like a woman and more masculine in appearance would people be less comfortable with it? I think they would.

Waitwhat23

No Wait, I would expect not. We know there are some posters (thankfully only a few in the scheme of things ) who have their own deep prejudice about regular posters on FWR and take whatever opportunity they can to admonish us and to tell us we are in a echo chamber.

Femaleandlearning, I'm so sorry for what you went through.

Penelope, you have interpreted this debate against your own situation, which has clearly been challenging, which we all do. It's not about husbands stepping in and wishing they could help, and helping the best they can.

Before it's mentioned as a "natural" gotcha, The Aka pygmy tribe in Central Africa are known for the huge amount of time they hold their babies and also the way they'll step into sex/gender roles quickly. It's an egalitarian society. They centre the child. They hold them constantly and they sleep and nap on them. They have apparently been known to occasionally offer a nipple when mother is absent and in the absence of modern dummies.

Its been picked up as click bait and probably rare. Some bf babies reject dummies and bottles within weeks as they know who their mother is. I'd imagine they'd also recognise the need for a tiny infant to bond with mum during the 40 days pp; such a society would allow mum to rest and recover and establish milk. Interestingly this isn't reported on.

They'd only lactate if they had a pituitary tumour.

Increasing numbers of TW are detransitioning and describing the impact on their bodies of the lack of testosterone and cross sex hormones, hormones blockers etc. so none of this can be good for their bodies.

Which ever way it's looked at, none of this benefits the child when we know how much male or a female partner can hold and look after an infant without actually physically feeding them. We know how many mothers who've not bf can do exactly the same.

It's a selfish narcissistic situation. The TW is likely even putting this obsession above their own health as well as the mother and child.

Why are we supporting this?

Very good point

I am rather amused by posters who have not taken part in this thread at any point thus far popping up to say that it's an echo chamber.

Any actual points to make?

You can support the trans community without supporting every single thing every trans individual does. There's no reason to do this, would anyone support a sad breastfeeding instead of the mother in any other scenario?

The fact a man says he got off on having a baby suck his nipples should be enough for most sane people to think this is wrong.

But no.

Fucking HELL.

I genuinely appreciate the debate you've provided Penelope as it made me consider your opinions and views and helped me to formulate why I disagree.

Your views could very easily become the latest way I see peer supporters twisting the acceptance and validation so I'm glad to have stretched that debate muscle

100%

In this instance the TW wants to do something in her own home that impacts her, her partner and the baby - there is an overall risk assessment to be done for that and I think we can agree we don't have enough data here to conclude it is always or never dangerous, but otherwise it is a personal decision.

Revulsion and disgust add nothing to the debate AND otherwise counterproductive in discussions concerning breastfeeding.

Primary issue with this is the prioritisation of the child. It's clear from research that it's phenomenally difficult for TW to feed successfully for any length of time. I started low level hrt while still feeding my then 3 yr old. My supply was knocked.

Revulsion is secondary to me, it makes no sense in a situation where the primary focus should be on mother (recovering from birth) and child.

The effort (when mum may also be trying to work on latch and feeding positions) and drugs needed, show a higher level of support input for the male than the female. This is centring the male's rights. Women do not get this level of priority- you yourself have described that.

It cannot be ignored that women are facilitating this and waving their poms poms. We cannot ignore it.

Penelope, we agree that dysphoria is a socially driven issue. As such I do not believe in a balanced society dysphoria would ever exist.

You also do not seem to be aware of the level of porn involved in many's desire to transition.

You claim to research offenders; I work on the coal face with vulnerable children and do not ever turn a blind eye when there's even a tiny red flag flying.

We do not ignore this and allow these individuals to make these choices within their family, when we know that post partum is THE most vulnerable time for women and babies and we know about rates of offending for this demographic.

I'm not talking about disgust. I'm talking about serious safeguarding.

Someone asked if her husband could breastfeed in the Domperidone support group after "Princess Mom" posted all their questionable posts.
She was verbally attacked by handmaidens who were saying that TWAW and men are different.

Absolutely nuts.
Literal nuts.

I never understand people loudly announcing that THEY ARE LEAVING MN, not just that, I AM DELETING MY ACCOUNT TOO!! (You see what you made me do?!)

The announcement is unnecessary, and deleting your entire account also unnecessary. Just say you are no longer going to reply, and move on. Like everyone else.

I don't identify as a femininst and yes, sometimes this board is a bit echo chambery, I'll certainly agree... but whilst that is sometimes just true in itself, it is also going to be that way because a) there accepted agreed upon features of being a feminist, just as with any group with a joint mission and outlook and b) the subject at hand sometimes has very narrow room for a difference of interpretation.

Trying to claim that artificially inducing milk production in a male is somehow laudable and about the wellbeing of the child and that the 'milk' produced is equivalent in anyway to that produced by a woman (even a sick one) and is good for a baby is almost equivalent in my mind as arguing that there are 'some' situations in which an older child can agree to enter a relationship with an adult, or agree to life limiting puberty blockers. I mean you can argue for both those things, but the margin for a credible argument is very narrow.

What? I'm an adoptive mum, and it was certainly never suggested I might be able to breastfeed my boy. Thank god

I don't think that anyone who uses the term born-woman is a gender critical feminist.

None the less I wish you well.

Quite.

The reason this was attempted was nothing to do with the needs of the child, but all to do with the whims and desires of an adult male.

The comparison between this and life saving cancer treatment are ludicrous.

*The drugs a transitioned male takes has not been tested for in the substance they produce.

Exactly what is the value to the child?*

Yes, the health of the newborn baby should be paramount. It is shocking that posters here are being criticised for pointing this out.

Did I also see the ‘it is not many’ argument proffered here?

Not many? So a few children at risk of potential interactions with drugs used for transitioning and testosterone etc is ok? Because?

And if acceptance of this grows, and it becomes many more… will it be ok to discuss it on a feminist board then? Or will women continue to be told off and that they are mean for discussing it. This is the same argument being used right now for women’s sports. It is not many, women should not discuss it.

I’m sorry you feel that way @PenelopePipPip as I haven’t really been discussing your comments with you but replying generally to the thread. Reading them now, I think the unanswered issue is “what is the nutritional value of male breast secretions?” as it is not in any available scientific literature. The only literature is about how secretions from male breast tissue can be induced. Of course all animal secretions contain hormones, but a mothers breast milk is constantly changing and has been frequently studied, while manufacturers have very strict guidance on what can and can’t be in formula. Babies don’t have cow milk for their first year so it’s not relevant here.

I am sorry that you have been ill and dealt with cancer. I agree that “natural” in this context is horrendous. I had a “natural” vaginal delivery with my second baby and a “natural” massive postpartum haemorrhage and I needed “unnatural” life saving treatment. It’s not on a par with your experience but I agree obsession over “natural” can miss the point some time. Whatever and however the baby is safely fed matters. So what is in a trans woman’s breast secretions? Has it been studied? How does it compare to breast milk? How does it compare to colostrum? Does it have any available immune benefit? Does it change over the course of a feed? Why is it not in the scientific literature?

I am not sure how many more times it can be said in numerous different ways.

The drugs a transitioned male takes has not been tested for in the substance they produce. Including the sometimes ineffective and unreliable testosterone suppression and like other sex hormones, I would expect that testosterone enters the milk. What effect does this having on developing infants? Is it lasting?

A male lactating does not have the receptors and the interaction with the infant to adjust the milk as a female does. So, what is the point of breastfeeding a substance that seems to lack the nutritional value and may have significant as yet unknown effects. Formula and other options are available.

Cow milk is tested for human consumption. I doubt that a female cow will be passing the same chemicals into the milk as males. It can be easily tested and it is also pasteurized.

Using the experience of a female who is taking drugs for chemotherapy which has been tested for in the past for safety in breast milk is a false comparator because the milk of males has had little testing. And as the mother of the infant, your body can do all the adjustments the infant needs in the make up of the milk.

There is little point in applying labels to the arguments and discounting them because they don’t fit into a box some
people seem to need them to fit into to be credible.

Again, what is the benefit to the child to feed that child a substance derived from a male no matter whether that male is a transitioned male or a husband who means well? What is the benefit of the substance is not adaptive as it is when a mother feeds her infant, and has unknown nutritional value?

Exactly what is the value to the child?

Oh dear, a technical glitch caused multiple posting, apologies