A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

Or think it's necessary to imply I'm actually a man?

I neither know nor care.

@Helleofabore

You appear to want to trip me up but I'm not sure why?

The comment was about my post. The thread is about a transwoman.

There has been no appetite for men (not transwoman) to start taking female hormones so they can breastfeed. If that changes then yes of course it would become a issue around men and not just transwoman.

But right now it isn't and it seems like just another way to insist that transwoman must be referred to as men.

You freely admit that you think it's disgusting for the transwoman in the stranger article to have admitted to getting off on it, yet accuse us of transphobia when we do the same. 🤔

claiming it would be better for babies to breastfeed from a female mammal (!) instead of a transwoman.

Female mammal milk has been used for a very long time to feed human infants. It is known what the effects are.

Your points continue to miss the fact that the effects of the drugs involved here and the hormones are unknown.

When you have the specialist who treated one transitioned male to be able to do this, refuse to do it on themselves with their own newborn or any age infant, and this was within the past 5 years if I remember correctly, that needs to be considered. They wrote that the effects long term on the infant was unknown and that specialist doctor was not going to take the risk.

Come on now, this is a trans issue, I mean transphobia. If someone is a transwoman, it is crap to insist on referring to them as a man.

So, read the thread. We also have had a poster discussing their husband, so all males.

Language is important. Trans people are not denying their biological sex we have been repeatedly told by trans people themselves (including the transitioned males who were quite active on Mn FWR last time this was discussed and were up front in saying it was an extreme group who wanted this) and their lobby groups.

Therefore, please explain to us why discussing males as a sex class is not appropriate in this very specific instance?

The accusation of ‘echo chamber’ is a tactic relying on emotional manipulation and shame to silence discussion.

Instead, bring on the evidence that supports this as being of any benefit to the child?

Otherwise, ‘echo chamber’ has gone the way of ‘transphobia’ in that it can be ignored as a tactic and meaningless.

But please crack on with those studies and are about the benefit to the child.

I don't understand this reply? Or think it's necessary to imply I'm actually a man? Feel free to do an AS and you can see I'm very much a woman.

If you know it's common for woman to take synthetic hormones when breastfeeding, don't you think this is the kind of evidence that should be considered when thinking about the safety aspects? Are the hormones & doses comparable? Are risks between woman & transwoman likely to be similar? I just think it's a very relevant point when many posters seem to be claiming this is completely new ground (i.e., babies being exposed to synthethic hormones via breastmilk).

Where have I said I want the discussion stopped?

Nope, I don't mean "anything criticising any trans person or anything they don't love". This thread very obviously has lots of claims that are based on a dislike of trans people, rather than critcisims that are logical or evidence based.

For example:

• just above - stating that I must mean misandry instead of transphobia. Come on now, this is a trans issue, I mean transphobia. If someone is a transwoman, it is crap to insist on referring to them as a man.


• claiming it would be better for babies to breastfeed from a female mammal (!) instead of a transwoman.


• the claims that all TW are doing this as part of sexual fetish and therefore must be peadophiles. This reminds me of the claims about gay men that used to be commonplace.


• refusing to say milk and instead using emotive terms "drug induced secretions", "chemical laden discharge", etc. Biologically, it is milk.


• ignoring the fact that many women take synthetic hormones whilst breastfeeding, and that adoptive mothers have used this protocol previously. As I've said - I would be intersted to know how the levels of synthetic hormones compare, but if that are comparable then we have a lot of safety data.

How do you feel about women taking synthetic hormones when they're breastfeeding? It's worth noting that the mini pill, contraceptive implant and combined pill (less likely to be recommended, but due to risk to mother, not baby), are all commonly taken by breastfeeding mothers.

Why do posters not realise they are posting on a site called Mumsnet? And that some of the posters on this thread HAVE breastfed, have also experienced having to make the decisions about contraception and many other substances, including wine?

It is posts like this that make readers and other posters very wary of who is censuring women discussing males, of any gender, taking treatment to feed an unknown substance to their infants.

It is almost like… um… some women have some knowledge about a topic and are discussing it from a child led perspective.

Who the fuck wants this discussion stopped?

so many arguments that aren't evidence or science based and a huge amount of derogatory claims

I haven't seen any evidence or science based claims at any point for feeding an infant a substance which has not been scrutinised in (seemly) any way whatsoever.

Any research which has done so, I would be genuinely interested to read and may well give me a different perspective on the whole situation.

But no such research appears to have been done. The very research that should have been done as a starting point - what is the benefit to the child.

We see the words 'echo chamber' thrown a lot on this board. This tends to be by posters who lack the evidence to back up claims or the critical thinking to evaluate why the evidence which should back up their argument doesn't exist. A journal article/research paper etc etc which shows the composition of the milk secreted by males who have been induced to produce milk showing that it is comparable to breast milk produced by females should be able to blow many of the arguments against it out of the water surely? If no such research exists, why?

the views of many posters on this thread seem to be coloured by an underlying belief that trans women are generally self serving, narcissistic, delusional, and often primarily driven by unhealthy sexual interests. I think past experience has shown that prejudices of that type about whole categories of people are unhelpful and often dangerous.

Well, and this is just a hunch, people's opinions might be 'coloured' by the individual in question asking not to be judged by saying they got off on it and that it was more exciting than anything a partner could do to them.

I'd be interested to see if any women do find breastfeeding 'erotic' as the NCT suggests. I suspect a big fat 0%.

Can someone do a poll over on aibu? I can't as I'm on the app.

But but but 50% of women get off while they're breastfeeding don't they? That's what we're told isn't it?

How UTTERLY transphobic of you to find a transwoman saying the same disgusting.

I mean this sincerely, but what part is transphobia? It seems anything criticising any trans person (or anything they don't love) is transphobic. It's lost all meaning.

Maybe this poster meant we are being misandrist? Because we are discussing MALES.

So hormones that have been researched for safety during breastfeeding?

And in infants where the effects female sex hormones are known due to millions of years experience?

But the thread is full of transphobia - so many arguments that aren't evidence or science based and a huge amount of derogatory claims

I mean this sincerely, but what part is transphobia? It seems anything criticising any trans person (or anything they don't love) is transphobic. It's lost all meaning.

If you mean concern about nipple stimulation- we've already had at least one person boldly admitting to it. And men aren't the same as women. I could go on.

@Soubriquet et al

How do you feel about women taking synthetic hormones when they're breastfeeding? It's worth noting that the mini pill, contraceptive implant and combined pill (less likely to be recommended, but due to risk to mother, not baby), are all commonly taken by breastfeeding mothers.

I would be interested in knowing how the hormones taken by transwoman compare to this, and if the existing body of literature regarding safety is therefore comparable.

Lots of people seem to be frustrated because many women struggle to breastfeed and they do not get this level of support. But if you paid privately, as this couple did, you would get access to the same level of care?

I would agree with the frustration if it was something being offered on the NHS but it isn't. In addition, synthetic hormones have already been examined in terms of helping women breastfeeding, with no evidence that they are effective.

FWIW, I'm not convinced on this. There's a lot of unknowns, isn't essential for the child, and isn't essential for the parent either. Breastfeeding isn't a universal experience and many women don't/aren't able to do it with their child, and have other ways of bonding.

But the thread is full of transphobia - so many arguments that aren't evidence or science based and a huge amount of derogatory claims. I agree with other posters about it seeming like an echo chamber here and I feel for any transpeople who look at these threads. Someone has found a disgusting quote and ascribed it to the person who the thread is about - it's nothing to with them. A very basic scan will show you the name/date don't match.

the views of many posters on this thread seem to be coloured by an underlying belief that trans women are generally self serving, narcissistic, delusional, and often primarily driven by unhealthy sexual interests. I think past experience has shown that prejudices of that type about whole categories of people are unhelpful and often dangerous.

The topic is about MALES. MALES taking drugs, typically drug induced, to breastfeed infants a substance of unknown nutritional value that has potential chemical risks.

Let’s stop talking about transitioned males. The topic is MALES.

What benefit is delivered to the infant in this case?

Do you understand that a breastfed baby has milk that the mother’s body has produced to react to the needs of that child specifically for the child at that very time? Done by interactions only a female body can do?

Again, exactly what benefit is a male feeding a chemical laden substance (including testosterone because we know estrogen crosses into milk) to an infant ?

Not one poster supporting males doing this has covered any supposed benefits.

But wait …. We have just been told that not every feed has to be nutritious if it is a ‘shared’ breastfeeding experience.

So, every x feed can serve another purpose other than getting optimum nutrition into a child. What purpose the x feed is for is not for us to discuss because, reasons….

You’ve almost, but not quite, hit the nail on the head.

A male, who believes that drug induced secretions are the best food for his baby, IS delusional. IS narcissistic. IS self serving.
He’s not a wet nurse, his body isn’t designed to feed offspring, and thats what colours the views people have about about MALES who think that they're able to breastfeed a baby.
There are many many transwomen who have commented on this issue by pointing out that its delusional. Are they wrong?
Your comparison with arguments made in the past about gay couples is pathetic.

so you don’t want to actually engage but to list the ways we are wrong to discuss it. Including the implication that discussing it is phobic - whether homophobic or transphobic.

So, pretty much business as usual.

I’m not going to get drawn into a long pointless discussion

Can't tell you how surprised I am.

I, and I think quite a few others on this thread from what I can see, don't think that mothers should be morally pressured to breast feed. I breast fed until my milk failed and then went onto formula, thankful that that was an option and my baby wasn't going to starve because I couldn't make enough milk. I personally think if a woman simply doesn't want to breastfeed (for whatever reason), that's a perfectly valid choice. Not sure how this is connected to males inducing milk production through a cocktail of drugs with no apparent research being done (as it has countless times with milk produced by females) as to the composition and benefit of the milk to the baby being fed?

Several posters have already mentioned that breastfeeding a child takes up a lot of the child's energy - if the milk isn't nutritionally beneficial or the amount isn't large enough, then that leads to weight loss (as I've experienced myself when breastfeeding). The mother breastfeeding may also have issues with supply if feeding is shared in this way.

In terms of the motivation of transwomen breastfeeding, whose benefit is it for? Given the milk produced hasn't been evaluated for it's nutritional value and benefits, then testing a baby with a largely unknown substance seems to be more for the benefit of the adult rather than the baby.

Seeing as you asked, here are my thoughts (slightly scattergun, and I’m not going to get drawn into a long pointless discussion)

• the arguments based on the idea that the child’s well-being, and the avoidance of any possible risk, however small, should effectively override all other considerations, remind me of the moral pressure that often seems to be put on women to breastfeed - that the benefits to the baby have been scientifically proven and therefore must outweigh almost all reasons the mother might have for not wanting to (eg related to the interference with their independence or ability to work, or the sharing of care);


• it also reminds me very strongly of the many arguments that have been made against gay people or same sex couple raising children - it’s a social experiment, it’s unnatural, the impact on the child can’t be known, it’s based on (at best) the gay person’s narcissistic desire for validation, or (at worst) some deviant sexual interest in children;


• if the child is being bf by the other parent as well (which is the impression I got from the screenshot on Twitter) I’m not sure how relevant the arguments about nutrition are;


• the views of many posters on this thread seem to be coloured by an underlying belief that trans women are generally self serving, narcissistic, delusional, and often primarily driven by unhealthy sexual interests. I think past experience has shown that prejudices of that type about whole categories of people are unhelpful and often dangerous.

Looking again at that photo.
It's nothing like a new mum with engorged mammaries.
It's also nothing like how a new mum would cradle her newborn baby.
It looks like someone's idea of what breastfeeding would be.
.
We might be adept at one handed feeding, but we hold our babies close and support our arms with pillows if we can.
.
Few women who have just been through pregnancy would have the upper arm strength to hold a baby at such an awkward angle for long enough for a baby to feed.