Should gender critical people actually be non-binary?? Or should non-binary people actually be gender critical?? I'm struggling to see the difference

This article by M. K. Fain is interesting in terms of the negative impacts of individual girls/women identifying as nonbinary, suggesting it is (or can be) the kind of "personal solution" that progressives and leftists (and Marxists) used to reject on principle. None of us is free until all of us are free.

Alex Drummond once said that h•• decision to be a transwoman with a beard was expanding the bandwidth of womanhood or something. So Alex lives h•• life, with the intention of showing us all that women may look like Alex.

A female who identifies as non-binary is in direct opposition to Alex, whether conscious of it or not. Usually not. The reasoning - I am not a woman because I do x, y and z and never do a, b and c - actually shrinks the bandwidth of what a woman can be. Or it does if we believe it.

AND they push everyone else into those sexist stereotypes of what they believe 'binary' means.

Being gender critical would free everyone of those stereotypes, being nonbinary (if it even worked which it would not) would only free a tiny group, leaving all other women to the wolves, for example. And the nonbinary seem fine with that!

So the are not feminists. I have written before that they think they are writing a private contract with sexism and misogyny, telling the predators to look elsewhere for their prey ('women', in their view are all Barbies and Stepford Wives). But those contracts will never be honoured, of course.

I do think all this is sad, like trying to buy the fruits of feminism without doing any of the work.

What people who announce they are 'non-binary' fail to see, is that the moment they announce they are 'non-binary', they set up a 'binary'.

I told my DD I was non binary and she told me I couldn't be because I'm a mum so must be a woman.

Joking aside, this does come across as kind of ignorant/intolerant. There are transmen who are or have been mothers, nonbinary people who've been and are mothers or fathers, and quite a few transwomen who've transitioned a bit later in life after having and raising children as a father. Caitlyn Jenner's daugher (for example) was harrassed for referring to Caitlyn as "Dad" and even after Caitlyn intervened and explained that that was the relationship between them and they were both happy with the terms, the random non-trans stranger identifying as an "ally" knew better ...🙄

Some people don't realise they're nonbinary (or trans) until after they had children. Some didn't have the words to describe their experience or identity until later, or weren't able to get theraputic help or a diagnosis, or knew but economic, emotional, cultural, etc. factors stopped them from coming out or transitioning until later in life. And some out trans and/or nonbinary people choose to have a child and the only/most practical way to do it is by becoming pregnant or inseminating a partner.

And gender critical people understand that it is your SEX that affects how other people/ society treats you, and you can't identify out of that. And that is why GC women continue to work to fight sexism.

Essentially, being non-binary does not in anyway address the sexism the NB person faces or that any other woman faces.

'Non-binary' is a pretty stark example of an utterly wrong headed analysis and solution.

This.

It would make more sense if you said I'm a NB woman, or a NB man, i.e. I'm a woman who has a lot of masculine traits and vice versa. I would recognise myself in that.

Unfortunately its TR/Stonewall definition means that you are neither sex, which puts us in unicorn land and means that NB lad could demand to use the changing rooms in Monsoon.

It also means one day you can say you are a woman and the next a man, or even moment to moment, which is exactly what the girl in the vid said and expect to be treated as such.

I mean that's mimicking split personality disorder at worst and completely unreasonable at best. I can see the attraction for teens, but adults indulging in this are a bit precious.

Boghossian used the wrong pronouns and then they all jumped on him. It only existed for this "gotcha" moment so then they could claim he was causing all of this emotional harm etc.

They only do it for special treatment and unfortunately people indulge them.

This!
Do female NB really think that by declaring themselves NB society sees them any different?

It was in this video by Peter Boghossian, who was in the middle of an experiment when a group of young people started abusing him from afar, then came down to talk to him. The OP is right, the “non-binary” person comes so close to getting it with “their” explanation:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zxvyeZa1YSI

And then one of their mates uses the “wrong” pronouns…

Non-binary is like ordering an expensive item from the menu when the bill is going to be shared.

It annoys everyone even though they may not say so and it only 'works' if not everyone does it.

There is sex, which is binary and immutable, and then there is personality, which is different for everyone.

Well I think if we all declared our NB identities (as we would technically all be NB as except those few rare people who do fit in the gender stereotype boxes) it would make the label ever so much less attractive.

My 11 year old grasped it easily enough when she just started high-school: 'Everybody is non-binary'.

Said with a shrug after a chat with a group of year 7 girls who, apparently, were all trans and non-binary.

She agreed that it was unnecessary and it just means 'people'.

Yes I’ve often thought this too. i’m a short-haired woman who wears a variety of different things, masculine, feminine and neither, does all the DIY, plays a stereotypically male instrument, but also sews and bakes, goes out without make-up, and has spent most of my life totally failing to get in a feminine-stereotyped box and instead just do what I like. As such I’m a lot more “non-binary” than most of the people I encounter who claim to be NB.

I do think NB is sometimes wisely picked by young people, especially girls, to jump on the trans bandwagon without having to pretend to be a boy or start doing drastic things to their bodies (though I know some do anyway). It’s not fitting gender stereotypes - the cool version. Instead of being bullied for it. Or it’s just trans without the commitment. As such I kind of am glad it’s there as an option as it’s probably saving a lot of girls from the worst excesses of irreversible medicalisation.

and yes pointing out we’re all non-binary is a good way to encourage and understanding of gender and what it actually is.

Go to Tescos. Look at hundreds of passing women. Are any of them fully gender conforming outwardly and inwardly? To what standards? Who writes these arbitrary standards? Where can they be found? How many do you have to 'fail' to not be 'of that label' any more? And who is going to come and moan at you for using the wrong label for what you're performing/thinking/feeling/choosing? (We have had some genius come here and explain that FWR is full of TM in denial because real women would embrace their oppression and role in life of being male people's support animals and maids.)

Essentially: anyone of either sex can look how they like, do what they like, like what they like. This does not make them not of the biological sex that they are, it makes them someone of that sex who does/chooses x. All great.

If they identify as that being a problem for them internally then I guess they choose to label themselves and need others to know and recognise that label. Obviously assigning labels to others yourself rather than labels they themselves have chosen, and insisting that they should adopt them based on your own need to categorise, would be rather rude and controlling and its very likely that the person wouldn't agree with you on your chosen label for them anyway.

I told my DD I was non binary and she told me I couldn't be because I'm a mum so must be a woman
Yet I'm also as bad as the Nazis for saying women have vaginas

Very confusing

I wonder whether lots of people who identify as non-binary have friends who identify as trans.

If your friend is saying "I'm a trans woman because I feel like a woman inside / don't identify with male gender stereotypes / really love the feel of women's clothing / love doing make-up and going shopping," it is quite difficult to argue that they can think/feel what they like, but they are still biologically male. It would definitely end that friendship and quite possibly result in ejection from a whole social circle.

So if you accept the proposition that this person is literally female because of (largely) gender stereotypes, then you have the issue that you yourself are not a walking stereotype. What does that make you? Non-binary presents itself as a neat solution - you don't have to perform stereotypes because of your sex and you also don't torpedo your place in your friendship group. Win-win.

just to add, as she’s declared herself NB, she believes she’s opted out of being a woman and rejected the gender expectations, but she still has to deal with her female sex body and all that it entails. In my opinion being NB does not reject stereotypes it simply tries to ignore them or side step them.

This is where the teenager and I are. Me GC, her fully into gender woo but rejecting stereotypes and just about holding onto the notion that you can't change sex.

I thought it was so utterly sad and pathetic, the way that young woman - who looked just like any female student of my generation - thought being a woman was a 'box' which I presume in her head meant a set of deeply conservative stereotypes like being a sexually submissive support animal and a fondness for lipstick and frilly princess dresses, and if you don't feel like that then you're not a proper woman. The internalised misogyny is truly breathtaking - this ideology has totally messed with their brains.

Non-binary is like "queer" (a lot of heterosexual people now call themselves "queer") where everyone wants to call themselves something to be different from other people and then can feel victimised.

When particular identities are more equal than others, such as organisations that are very focused on quotas, if you can call yourself a minority you're more likely to get certain opportunities.

Organisations like Stonewall are very much interested in what you are, not who you are.

NB people buy into gender ideology hook line and sinker though. So they can't be GC.

It's rather infuriating because so many NB people are so close to "getting it". (Many aren't of course, eg those who are just faddy attention seekers).

Instead of forcing everyone around you to pretend you're neither male nor female because you don't like the stereotypes, how about you reject the stereotypes put on males and females instead?
They only reject stereotypes for them-so special-selves, rather than society at large.

You're still either a male non binary person or a female non binary person. Nothing can change that binary!