Should gender critical people actually be non-binary?? Or should non-binary people actually be gender critical?? I'm struggling to see the difference

Well pronouns are sex based, the English speaking world hasn’t consented to them being changed to gender based, it’s just been forced upon us.

But that’s by the by.

The example of your friends proves the point of the thread. The only difference between non-binary people and GC people is the reapplication of a new label after removing one based on internal logic.

If your friends are female, ask them what makes them different to anyone from the 80s who was gender non-conforming like Annie Lennox, or Boy George if male. There isn’t any.

And you know there won’t be. You certainly can’t explain it, you just think it’s whatever they think is reasonable enough. The only difference between you and the rest of us is you’re accepting of illogicality despite knowing deep down, whereas the rest of us aren’t. You know it makes no sense but think it’s decent to just shrug and go along with it. Which is your prerogative, I guess.

Similarly, I used to have a colleague called Josh. His name was actually John and that’s what his email address said, but he preferred Josh. I found it slightly confusing, but I never asked him about it, and I just did my best to remember to call him Josh. There’s no need to make a big fuss about just respecting people’s wishes.

@NotBadConsidering
the main difference from an interpersonal interaction point of view (certainly in a workplace context) is pronouns. Personally i would much prefer if we didn’t have gendered pronouns at all - whether you believe they refer to sex or to gender, why can’t we refer to a person without bringing their sex/gender into it? Anyway, if a person is uncomfortable being called he or she, I’m not going to do it - it’s just common courtesy, like getting their name right.

It’s just so narcissistic. People use pronouns to refer to sex, not gender, so why are they asking to be referred to differently?

Each of them is either make or female. Not a bit of each, not both, or neither, yet they have some need to ask colleagues to use clumsy language for some reason.

It’s no different to me asking people,to call me “your highness”.

@WallaceinAnderland I’ve never come across anyone who denied that society is largely made up of people who are regarded as (and regard themselves as) either a man or a woman. The difference in opinion is about what those labels refer to.

So that’s the point of the thread, isn’t it? The only difference between non-binary people and the rest of the world that isn’t actually GI Joe or Barbie is non-binary people apply different internal logic to the same things as everyone else does and that’s somehow a thing.

The only real objective difference is their compelling of your language around that. You seem to be saying the only difference is pronouns.

@NotBadConsidering outwardly there wouldn’t be a difference (although they would still stand out in our workplace, given how conventional lawyers tend to be in their appearance). There may be differences in terms of how they feel about their sex or gender, but that’s personal and not really any of my business. I just have to remember to call them they/them. Like I said, it’s not a big thing.

Non-binary people aren’t gender critical. They’re biological sex deniers and elevate feelings over material reality. Instead of questioning the stereotypes ascribed to each sex, and seeing strict gender roles as regressive, they have created a new identity box and claim to be neither male nor female.

If it wasn’t for the demand request for they/them pronouns, how would your lawyer colleagues be any different from any other person who has a gender non-confirming appearance, say a woman in a suit like Annie Lennox in the 80s, or a man in make up like Boy George in the 80s, or anyone else who doesn’t dress stereotypically in a way that aligns with gender “norms”?

What I think is strange is that non binary people believe in binary, i.e. male and female. Which I thought was a big no no for gender types. Hey ho.

@SlightlyGeordieJohn
most of my colleagues prefer to be referred to as ‘she’ or ‘he’, and present in a way that more closely aligns with gender norms.

Every one of your colleagues is non-binary though. No-one conforms to the stereotypes of only one sex, or identifies with only one.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions and generalisations being made here about what non-binary people are like. So, for balance - I have two non-binary colleagues. They are, I would estimate, late twenties/early thirties; both professionals (lawyers); perfectly sensible, likeable, intelligent people. They just want to be referred to as they/them, and not to be subjected to hostile comments or abuse regarding their gender non-confirming appearance. It doesn’t seem to me an unreasonable ask.

NB are rejecting their sex - because they, instead of accepting their sexed bodies are different to those of the opposite sex, are so deeply in belief and service to stereotypes that rather than rejecting the stereotypes they reject the idea of having a sexed body.

The NB want no division or recognition of sex. Makes you wonder if they think Transpeople aren't valid, as Transpeople wish to be the opposite sex.

Not really. Non binary people think gender exists as an actual internal thing inside them, that they need to express and others need to validate.

GC people think gender does not exist other than being a limiting social construct that one should reject.

NB think sex is irrelevant, or at least subordinate, to internal gender identity.
GC recognize that women are defined by our sex and that much of the disadvantage/ oppression women face is because of the sexed bodies of men and women ( sexual violence/ physical violence/ access to reproductive healthcare, abortion/ attempts to regulate and control women’s sexuality / healthcare not recognizing differences in how men and women express illness or response to treatment and so on..

No rtft but GC people don't chop breasts off or have gender nullification surgery as some NB people do.

So, no thank you

Everyone should be treated as non binary. But as we all know it's not the case.

Hence we are still working on a gender pay gap.

You can say what you like and have whatever pronouns you want but don't think for a minute you will get treated any differently.

Except to cause upset about people getting your pro nouns wrong.

Not you op I just mean In general.

How does non binary work exactly? I'm not being goady I'm just struggling to see how it makes a difference to anyone in real life.

Exactly so.

They’d actually shout “Conformist!” At me as an insult as they say around all smoking roll-ups and drinking scrumpy.

NB are people who can’t conceive of living without paying attention to gender stereotypes. Therefore, even when they don’t conform to these stereotypes, they still have them in their heads and give them importance. They think they’re progressive but they actually retain a kernel of conservatism because they subconsciously can’t let go of stereotypes.

Gender critical people pooh-pooh stereotypes and ignore them. They don’t define themselves by them nor by whether they fulfil all, some or none of them. GC people aim to be free of gender stereotypes whereas NBs either choose to reify them because they love gender ideology, or simply can’t conceive that they can just be themselves without any reference whatsoever to gender stereotypes.

For some NB people though, it’s simply narcissistic attention-seeking, nothing more.

I would imagine that non binary people don’t believe gender is purely a social construction.

SlightlyGeordieJohn

It’s funny. Fir some reason it reminds me of my time at college. I was the only person there who wore a white T-shirt, jeans and trainers, and was frequently called “conformist” by the dreary hippy contingent, every last one of whom had a matching parka, dreadlocks, goatee and smelled of patchouli.

We’re all different, in exactly the same was as each other! Look at my purple hair, cartoon avatar, pronouns in my bio and socialist politics!

One Way by the Levellers... nothing more ironic than 30,000 dreary hippies (all looking exactly like your description) at Glastonbury singing along together "There's only one way of life, And that's your own"

BootsAndRoots

Non-binary is like "queer" (a lot of heterosexual people now call themselves "queer") where everyone wants to call themselves something to be different from other people and then can feel victimised.

Just googled and discovered queer is also a verb "spoil or ruin (an agreement, event, or situation)." eg "Reg didn't want someone meddling and queering the deal at the last minute"

So, ironically, heterosexuals are queering the queer community!

It’s funny. Fir some reason it reminds me of my time at college. I was the only person there who wore a white T-shirt, jeans and trainers, and was frequently called “conformist” by the dreary hippy contingent, every last one of whom had a matching parka, dreadlocks, goatee and smelled of patchouli.

We’re all different, in exactly the same was as each other! Look at my purple hair, cartoon avatar, pronouns in my bio and socialist politics!

Sex is binary.

Gender is a made up social thing.

Non-binary sex is impossible.

Non-binary gender is a nonsense because it recognises that gender doesn’t really exist while making a big fuss about gender and insisting on applying gender stereotypes.

The whole thing is very teenage. “Wah! No one understands me! I’m so original and special and misunderstood! I’m going to prove how different I am by copying the social trend of the day!” Yawn 🙄 If it was the eighties they’d all be punks, if it was the sixties they’d be hippies, yawn bloody yawn.