Major win for Labour Women's Declaration

twitter.com/tomhcalver/status/1538223421716414464

and of course we want more equality for women.

Why 'more equality' rather than plain unequivocal 'equality'?

Has there been a meeting yet?
He's still out there and struggling to square the circle.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-says-vast-majority-of-women-dont-have-a-penis-and-need-safe-spaces/

6 June 2022, 11:09

Keir Starmer says 'vast majority' of women 'don't have a penis'. Picture: Alamy/LBC

By James Bickerton

Sir Keir Starmer has said the "vast majority" of women "of course don't have a penis" and should be provided with "safe spaces".

However, he added there are a "small minority of individuals" who are born with "a gender they don't now identify with", and they should be treated with "respect".

The Labour leader made the comments during the 'Call Keir' segment of Nick Ferrari's LBC show.

He commented: "Let me be clear - for the vast majority of women this is all about biology and of course they don't have a penis.

"We all know that and of course they need safe spaces and we'll support that, I've been supporting that for many years and of course we want more equality for women.

Same here. Still a member, but there's nothing more than my membership subscription coming their way and that may include my vote.

In the past I have stuffed envelopes and delivered leaflets - I dont do it now. Perhaps more importantly for the Labour party I used to stump up some cash around election time. That money is now funding the legal actions of women fighting for our rights. Labour is being hit by this in more ways than it actually realises.

We shall see. Tony Blair is theo nly Labour person to win a general election in the last 48 years. Stamer has a very difficult time on his hands particularly now Scotland is really lost to Labour. He has to win in England to win and that means in the read all and in the traditional blue Tory seats, red wall, blue wall and blue rinse brigade - he needs to start by thinking about what women want - that is half the country and the trans issue really does matter to us. We go through labour, we breast feed. We do a lot of things that men can't do and for men to seek to steal and erode that by denying women their sex despite the law (Stamer is a lawyer) protecting against sex discrikmination is a much bigger deal than many on the left of the Labour party realise.

SC may be an MP, but she is not influential in the Labour Party. I wouldn't pay much attention to her opinions when deciding whether or not to vote for the party unless you happen to be in Walthamstow.

I really hope you're right HPFA and, if you are, you can send me a massive slice of humble pie and I'll eat it on YouTube. But the way SC has been mashing up language this weekend (and yes, I take the point that at least she's engaged) does not make me feel any more inclined to trust a word Labour say. When they make their next pronouncement about single sex spaces I will be thesaurusing the shit out of it. And that's down to them.

I think you are clutching at straws...

@cocoapopfan

Despite all these ructions I do think Labour is working its way to a sensible position.

Anneliese Dodds is a significant voice

twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1530822452221300737

I'm also going to give something to Stella Creasey - she's arguing her position, engaging in debate and taking the flak head on. I've not seen her resorting to "bigots" or "suicide" or "very vulnerable minority". And that may also be a sign of progress.

@HPFA Of course you are right that Labour may get elected despite this issue, and in that case any moves even slightly in the direction of sanity is a good thing. But Labour has a very bad track record when it comes to taking support for granted, and for overlooking "minor" issues .... remember Brexit?

@HPFA Compromise may seem like the clever political choice for Labour, but it has big dangers. Read the thread on Stella Creasey - countless women who were happy for the status quo/some kind of accommodation, now saying they think the GRA has to be repealed. The middle ground no longer really exists in this debate: on the GC side, because nobody trusts TRAs anymore, now they know that a legal fiction intended to help out a small minority, is being used against women to argue that sex does not exist and that women are nothing but “cervix-havers”.

Yes, the posters on this board are unusually informed but - see Ricky Gervais. Ignorance on the basics of this debate is increasingly confined to Labour politicians and activists I’m afraid.

Sometimes two positions are unreconcilable and that is increasingly true of sex vs gender, but Labour is refusing to acknowledge this, which is why so much of what they say is nonsensical. (“Of course women are adult females!” “Of course TWAW!”) Meanwhile, even if they are beginning to acknowledge that sex is relevant sometimes, this won’t actually do them much good. The Tories are now rowing firmly away from gender ideology, and so even if Labour move slightly, they are still positioning themselves as the party which supports all this relative to the Tories. They are actually putting themselves in the position of carrying the can for all the mistakes and scandals, even if they happened under a Tory government. That seems incredibly stupid to me.

They don't need to say they will repeal the GRA but they should shut up about reforming it. If Starmer had quietly dropped mention of it once he became leader Labour would be in a much better position now. They also need to make it plain that bullying and shutting down debate is not acceptable.

As for alienating activists, does anyone have any clue what most party members/activists really think? Locally, I know women who have quietly decided to no longer canvas in elections, even if they are still members. These were people who had busy lives, but were prepared to turn out and tramp the streets and knock on doors. But the party is oblivious, of course.

Alba - I dont follow Scottish politics but new parties always struggle and the voter turnout in the local elections was under half the electorate. Many people decided not to vote at all.

We were talking about what Labour needs to do to get it's former voters out and to attract new voters - it's quite clearly not managing to do that even when the government has pissed off the electorate more than is usual for mid term. To quote "Labour, which came second in North Shropshire at the 2019 election, saw its share of the vote fall from 22.1% to 9.7%." I believe Labour also saw its share of the vote fall in Chesham. The Lib Dems put up female candidates for both constituencies.

Many people will vote based on what they perceive to be their economic interest. Labour is not trusted on the economy, and the Corbynites rubbishing of the party's achievements didnt help. As cocoapopfan said the TWAW party line feeds into Labour's image problem. If they cant be trusted to identify reality how they can be trusted with the economy? The Lib dems keep their trans policies quieter and part of a package of reforms. They can moderate their language going into an election far more readily than Labour can and there is more chance of getting them to realise what damage is being done to women and children than there is a mysogynist Labour Party.

This is a small c conservative country and in tough times people want strong leaders. This is making Starmer seem weak and pathetic. The tories will weaponise this.

I realise just how difficult this is for Labour - and that is why the re-education of Labour party activists has to start now and why the party needs its leader to actually lead.

Labour Women's Declaration must have their heads in their hands today. I really feel for them. Even if they manage to get some kind of statement from Starmer, the Stella Creasys will respond with with 'Ah but those words don't mean what they used to mean.'

HPFA, you're forgetting that the situation is changing daily. We've just had Ricky Gervais openly making fun of gender ideology and TRAs. We've had the interim Cass report and the full report is due before long. The Allison Bailey tribunal has people in the legal profession talking more openly about their opposition to gender ideology. Stonewall has been exposed for the extortion racket it is. Terfs have started boasting about being terfs and wearing t-shirts proclaiming their GC beliefs in public. Accusations of transphobia are just laughable. The spell has been broken. More and more people are speaking out in their everyday lives. I have friends in schools where teachers have quietly agreed to drop all gender-related material and talk instead only about sex and biology.

In a changing climate Labour (my party of choice) just looks more and more misogynistic and frankly stupid and embarrassing. And if I feel that way, so will thousands of other women in marginal constituencies.

Stella arguing with Debbie Hayton over the above article in this thread. Hayton is the one talking sense. Stella really doesn't get it. She reminds me of the witnesses at Allison's tribunal. None so blind as those that cannot see.
twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/1530305525568753666

How it has come to supposedly intelligent women Labour MPs caring so little about other women's hard won rights that they are so willing to give them away to 'men' is truly staggering to me....I don't think with this many 'batty' people in Labour/LibDem etc I can ever trust them with any issue ever again.

There's zero hope of Labour coming to its senses based on this interview with Stella Creasy in the Daily Telegraph: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/stella-creasy-jk-rowling-wrong-woman-can-have-penis/
She expects feminists to believe TWAW:

'“JK Rowling doesn’t support self-identification whereas I do. Of course biological sex is real – it’s just not the end of the conversation. I am somebody who would say that a trans woman is an adult human female. I would say that you and I were adult human females.

“As an old fashioned feminist, I’m still fighting the patriarchy. I’m not interested in fighting amongst ourselves. And one of the things that happens to trans women is that they are oppressed because the patriarchy goes, ‘Oh well you’re a woman, right that’s it, let’s pick you apart’. So it’s right for me to stand with my trans sisters and say: ‘Let’s fight these battles together’.”

Yep this!! We’re asking for so so little & yet Labour apparently thinks so little of women it can’t be arsed to simply state

thst sometimes sex matters Abd in those times womens right to single sex spaces will be upheld

that’s it, that’s all we want

we’re not asking them to cross the gorge of eternal peril on a flaming pogostick

'literally all I'm asking for is a clear reassurance that my current rights, flimsy as they are, will be upheld, and I do sometimes get a bit tired of this being presented as if it's asking for the moon on a stick.'

Exactly why should anyone vote for a party that has wilfully chosen to misrepresent the existing law to the detriment of 50% electorate?

if the only position that will satisfy "GC women" is the one being demanded by some on this thread.
I guess I'm one of those women?
I have no issue with anyone who's chosen to stay and fight from within. Good for you and the very best of luck. But there is nothing extreme about my position. As I keep saying, literally all I'm asking for is a clear reassurance that my current rights, flimsy as they are, will be upheld, and I do sometimes get a bit tired of this being presented as if it's asking for the moon on a stick.

@cocoapopfan

I don't disagree with any of that - there are good political reasons why Labour should have a better position and that seems to be what Labour Women's Declaration are aiming at.

But ultimately, - and this is what I'd be advising Keir Starmer if I was a completely neutral advisor concerned only with a Labour victory - if the only position that will satisfy "GC women" is the one being demanded by some on this thread - there aren't enough votes in that to make the almighty ructions it would cause within the party worthwhile.

What's happening in politics at the moment is we seem to be getting the formation of an anti-Tory bloc - and unless something happens to change that we ought to be getting prepared for some kind of Labour/LibDem coalition.

@HPFA I agree you with you most voters will vote for the least worst option and can’t afford to prioritise one single issue. I also agree that it’s better to try and influence the “left/progressive” parties as LWD are doing rather than trusting in ballot-spoiling or the possibility of new GC parties.

But I think it’s wrong to think that this issue won’t damage Labour massively. It speaks to a lot of the problems they already have. It reinforces the idea they are the party for smug metropolitans and trendy students, that they use legal sophistries to hide their essential dishonesty, that they are undemocratic and despise ordinary, common sense beliefs. That they prefer to virtue-signal about imaginary oppression rather than address real problems. That they have more in common with American identity politics and individualism and the trendy progressivism of international institutions than with most parts of the UK.
It also associates them with an incredibly nasty brand of activism, and opens them up to charges of bullying within their own party. It has the potential to resonate with important parts of their base - eg some ethnic/religious minorities - and I think will drive older women in general away from them into and the arms of the Tories.

Labour really can’t afford to piss off ANY voters, the way the SNP can. This issue does matter. And if a lot of people aren’t even aware of it, the Tories and the media will make sure they are by the time of the next election.

Pretty sure it cost Jo Swinson her seat though. 😀

Labour almost certainly doesn't need our votes" - usual wishful thinking rather than an adult assessment of the position.

Where is the evidence that Labour/LibDems/Green/SNP are being punished electorally for their position on trans rights?

How did LibDems win in Chesham and North Shropshire if this was the case?

Why are Labour 5-6 points ahead in the polls?

Why has the SNP completely trounced Alba in all Scottish elections?

Let's do the Maths - first you have to think how many women care deeply about this issue - then you have to subtract all the ones who would vote Tory anyway - then you have to subtract all the ones who care about the issue but it's not high enough on their priorities to make them change their vote - how many do you think that leaves? Enough for Labour to cause a massive internal row and lose a load of activists?

None of this is meant to tell other people how to vote - if you're voting Conservative or spoiling your vote because of this issue that's your choice and your absolute right.

But I don't see any point in kidding yourself that large numbers of people are going to follow your example.