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Original poster

Identifying into oppression - discussion, challenging etc

41 replies

GCRich · 18/05/2022 09:42

Imagine a hypothetical young woman. Her father works in a very well paid finance job and her mother is a fairly famous actress. Her education was expensive and then she went on to a top university.

She is good looking, gender conforming and had a spectacular traditional white wedding to a gender conforming man at a reasonably famous wedding venue. So far she pretty much ticks every single privilege box going, other than her sex.

She identifies as LGBTQI+++++++++++ and in particular non-binary, and as an aspiring musician regularly appears at various open mic nights for the LGBTQ+ community across Los Angeles where she lives.

Now, this hypothetical woman could, for all we know, have suffered significant trauma as a kid. She could be bi-sexual and suffered homophobic abuse all through her teens. She could suffer from depression or autism or any number of mental health conditions that make her life a struggle.

But I cannot help think that it is deeply offensive.

(1) Saying you are NB when married and gender conforming is meaningless.

(2) Surely the LGBTQ+ community is about the shared experience of oppression as a result of one's identity / orientation? Even if one is bi-sexual and NB does one experience any oppression at all if gender conforming and heterosexually married? Even if one is literally part of the LGBTQ+ community does that mean that one is morally part of it? Is your participation not taking opportunities away from those suffering from genuine oppression (eg a feminine gay man who was kicked out of home at 16 for being gay).

(3) Under what circumstances is it reasonable to call the woman out for appropriating oppression and playing the victim? Note - she is probably Top 1% of the global population when it comes to privilege, even accounting for the fact that she is relatively underprivileged as a woman.

(4) Is there anything more annoying than hypothetical people like the person above? Maybe this post should be in AIBU. "AIBU to get insanely cross when I see deeply privileged people identifying into oppression?"

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 18/05/2022 13:57

There seems to be a whole hierarchy of oppression that people are desperate to crowbar their way into. I was reading an article on 4th wave now from a detrans. Canadian girl. Because they it'd as male, they went to the end of the trans oppression queue, behind essentially middle aged straight white men. Were gaslit into sexual relationships, young girls coerced into sexual relationships with men in their 30s or older. Believing that they had stop shut up and listen or they were oppressing these men.

You judge away, I won't judge you for it.

Original poster
GCRich · 18/05/2022 13:44

"I know a couple gay musicians, I can't really imagine any of them going to a special LGBT+ open mic night."

But presumably if someone were to decide that an LGBT+ open mic night is what they wish to host, in order to give LGBT+ musicians a chance that they might not get elsewhere, your gay friends might consider it a bit cheeky of straight musicians to sign up?

OP posts:
Original poster
GCRich · 18/05/2022 13:42

IcakethereforeIam · 18/05/2022 13:34

Bit of a tangent, haven't there been straight women in relationships with tw, who call themselves lesbians? Not the transwidows, that's a whole different shitshow. In these instances there's no gaslighting. Do these women have the PC of sexual orientation? Not judging them, just curious. I don't know if it would make any difference in practice.

Would the problem be that PCs become so diluted and broad they essentially become meaningless.

Yes. I am not a lesbian, but I am offended on behalf of lesbians. I cannot imagine how frustrating it would be to suffer from discrimination for being a lesbian, and then get a lecture from a straight woman having straight sex with a male bodied penis-haver about how that straight women is actually even more oppressed because not only are they a lesbian but they are in a relationship with a trans person as well. "Back of the queue butch lesbians - you don't matter"

I am judging them!

OP posts:
MangyInseam · 18/05/2022 13:41

NB has always been a meaningless category.

But maybe the real problem is that people in general are so desperate to belong to an identity group? I know a couple gay musicians, I can't really imagine any of them going to a special LGBT+ open mic night.

Original poster
GCRich · 18/05/2022 13:39

MollyRover

I think you're looking for reasons to be offended, implying that you're actually being oppressed by women who don't wish to "conform" as how they appear to you. Women are arguably the most oppressed group in history, and complex beings by your own description!

Nope, I can say for sure that you are 100% wrong. I AM offended. Seeing people who are bursting with all sorts of privilege claiming to be oppressed for being "queer" and using facilities designed to be for the LGBT community, whilst being in a heterosexual marriage and in no way appearing to be part of the LGBT community beyond calling themselve "NB" massively offends me. The lie offends me. The claiming of victimhood offends me. The claiming of resources for underprivileged people whilst clearly not needing them offends me. The homophobic and misogynistic lecturing they do offends me.

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 18/05/2022 13:34

Wasn't there a barrister/banker(?), who's a part time trans woman? Won an award that was supposed to be reserved for woman. Oh, and the actor Ezra something.

Bit of a tangent, haven't there been straight women in relationships with tw, who call themselves lesbians? Not the transwidows, that's a whole different shitshow. In these instances there's no gaslighting. Do these women have the PC of sexual orientation? Not judging them, just curious. I don't know if it would make any difference in practice.

Would the problem be that PCs become so diluted and broad they essentially become meaningless.

MollyRover · 18/05/2022 11:12

GCRich · 18/05/2022 10:43

"How do you know that they're gender conforming and heterosexual? Are you the LGBTQ police? If it's a typical scenario then it's not hypothetical, is it? Who are you calling out? Is it Lady Gaga or Michelle Visage???"~

In my hypothetical example (and online in real life multiple times) I have seen the social media profile which shows the woman to be gender conforming and in a heterosexual relationship. As I made clear in OP I acknowledge that it is possible to be bisexual whilst being in a straight relationship (but I also think that feminine gay men probably suffer more homophobic abuse than gender conforming women in straight marriages. )

What is your problem? Are hypothetical examples based on numerous real life experiences an invalid way of talking about an issue?

I think you're looking for reasons to be offended, implying that you're actually being oppressed by women who don't wish to "conform" as how they appear to you. Women are arguably the most oppressed group in history, and complex beings by your own description!

Original poster
GCRich · 18/05/2022 10:43

"How do you know that they're gender conforming and heterosexual? Are you the LGBTQ police? If it's a typical scenario then it's not hypothetical, is it? Who are you calling out? Is it Lady Gaga or Michelle Visage???"~

In my hypothetical example (and online in real life multiple times) I have seen the social media profile which shows the woman to be gender conforming and in a heterosexual relationship. As I made clear in OP I acknowledge that it is possible to be bisexual whilst being in a straight relationship (but I also think that feminine gay men probably suffer more homophobic abuse than gender conforming women in straight marriages. )

What is your problem? Are hypothetical examples based on numerous real life experiences an invalid way of talking about an issue?

OP posts:
MollyRover · 18/05/2022 10:36

Ho do you know that they're gender conforming and heterosexual? Are you the LGBTQ police? If it's a typical scenario then it's not hypothetical, is it? Who are you calling out? Is it Lady Gaga or Michelle Visage???

Original poster
GCRich · 18/05/2022 10:20

So it's not a hypothetical person then?

I quite detest soapboxing, and white knighting the LGBTQI++++--- WHATEVER LETTER GOES HERE NEXT community. They can and do speak for themselves.

Well, it's not a real person, it is illustrative of many real people. What word would you prefer to use than "hypothetical", given "real" would be a 100% cast iron lie?

Re: your second paragraph - are you saying that you hate what I am doing or that you hate what a gender conforming married heterosexual is doing?

OP posts:
guinnessguzzler · 18/05/2022 10:17

TheWeeDonkey · 18/05/2022 10:10

Pulp wrote a great song about this in the 90s

🤣🤣🤣

True.

MollyRover · 18/05/2022 10:13

TheWeeDonkey · 18/05/2022 10:10

Pulp wrote a great song about this in the 90s

It was the Pulp glory days.

MollyRover · 18/05/2022 10:12

GCRich · 18/05/2022 10:08

Well, I have come across a many people online who veer towards having this as a story, and I have combined elements I have seen from various random people, with others I have made up, in order to illustrate a point.

I suppose that I have the tendency to detest dishonesty. I absolutely hate it. And I find myself INCREDIBLY angry and frustrated when I see privileged people espousing hateful beliefs (homophobic and misogynisitic) from a deeply privileged position, whilst claiming to be the victim of misogyny and homophobia and transphobia.

So it's not a hypothetical person then?

I quite detest soapboxing, and white knighting the LGBTQI++++--- WHATEVER LETTER GOES HERE NEXT community. They can and do speak for themselves.

TheWeeDonkey · 18/05/2022 10:10

Pulp wrote a great song about this in the 90s

Original poster
GCRich · 18/05/2022 10:08

Well, I have come across a many people online who veer towards having this as a story, and I have combined elements I have seen from various random people, with others I have made up, in order to illustrate a point.

I suppose that I have the tendency to detest dishonesty. I absolutely hate it. And I find myself INCREDIBLY angry and frustrated when I see privileged people espousing hateful beliefs (homophobic and misogynisitic) from a deeply privileged position, whilst claiming to be the victim of misogyny and homophobia and transphobia.

OP posts:
MollyRover · 18/05/2022 09:53

(5) If this is all hypothetical then what is the point of the thread?

My two cents? People are people. Treat others as you would like to be treated, and stop trying to prove to yourself that you are special and different.

The end.