Got referred to as them/they at work today

14th Century according to Wikipedia

I am hearing ‘they’ used in speech combined with third person singular conjugations.

“They expect”, “they want”.

Myself I resolutely use he or she for a known person, personally I don’t like this shift to they. However it does feel like it is naturally evolving. For example in Milli Hill’s article in the daily mail she writes “how does a midwifery lecture find themselves” instead of herself. Possibly the lecturer prefers or demands the third person plural pronoun but the reader doesn’t necessarily know that and so it just becomes normalised as a speech pattern. Often I hear or see themself which is surely a new construction. Even though I am ideologically opposed to using ‘they’ for known individuals I sometimes find myself using it in speech when I am not being careful, we naturally pick up the speech patterns used by others around us even if we don’t like those patterns! In writing it is easier to be more careful.

So, would you say 'they expects', 'they wants' etc? Like Gollum.

I think this is right. I often hear “language evolves all the time” from the proponents of forced speech and I think but naturally evolving is not the same as being forced. However in the case of using ‘they’ for known individuals it is naturally evolving due environmental pressures on the category of sex.

As with so many things which are being pressured by gender identity and queer theory I think the logical conclusion is that everything will end up up neutralised, neither male nor female. When sex is made irrelevant in law or socially or taboo, what then is the point in having anything for the different sexes be it pronouns, toilets, changing rooms, sports, prizes, shortlists, support groups, prisons etc

This perfectly suits the end goals of queer theory but I don’t think it will be desirable for people identifying as trans, where will they get their validation? It will be terrible for women and girls, we’ll have no allowances made nor recognition for our sex specific needs because the gender neutral default will turn out to be male.

Basically while the trans movement may shout the loudest, what they are asking for is incoherent and illogical. The quiet non-binaries will claim the victory from the wasteland, the recognition of male and female will become socially and perhaps also legally unacceptable.

My workplace uses ‘they’ in online spaces to refer to all users regardless of sex or preferred pronouns. It will go this way in society I believe because genuinely no one can be bothered with remembering preferred pronouns for individuals and it is not a natural speech of any language in human history to do that, but also because many people feel uncomfortable incorrectly sexing individuals and choose ‘they’ instead. Applying ‘they’ to everyone is what I believe will naturally evolve from all this mess. After all we lost the second person single pronoun thou, thy, thine and stick with the formal/plural you. It is not inconceivable that we could lose the third person single pronouns too and be stuck with the impersonal/plural ‘they’.

Being called 'she' used to be unacceptable - I was brought up being told "who's she? The cats mother?" No idea why.

That is because using a personal pronoun as a replacement for a parent etc. in your presence was deemed bad manners and disrespectful. 'They' would be an even worse transgression.

So, it would have been more respectful to say 'mammy/mother etc'. Or Grandma etc. Jane etc.

I'd imagine instead of the cat's mother, if using 'they', you'd be asked something along the lines of 'who is they? A herd of horses?'

This

"who's she, the cat's mother" is because you're supposed to use a person's name though, not because you should use 'they'

'She gave me a card' vs 'Mrs Smith gave me a card'.

'They gave me a card' is even less polite than 'she' given it sounds like you didn't even pay enough attention to the person to notice if they were male or female, let alone find out their name.

Singular they is used as a distancing mechanism for strangers, or when you don't know the sex of the person - the reason it feels impersonal, is because it is, that's how historically they've been used.

Yes I often call people they, never really thought anything about it. Might come from the 'cats mother' thing, who knows.... I wouldn't even notice that to be honest, so I wouldn't get too worked up about it OP.

Dear X in HR,

Just a quick thing, I'm only one person so please don't use plurals when referring to me.

FYI I don't wish to disclose whether I have a gender ID in the workplace, so please use the conventional terms based on sex if you do have to. I'll let you know if/when this changes.

No harm has been done with this one email I just want to be clear.

If there is a text field other enter "observed seax-based pronouns".

You could also reply to HR, " Hi X, we had a conversation about pronouns the other day with my manager and team. They was asking them whether they had declared pronouns and one of them queried had they asked HR if they are compulsory and they commented that it wasn't clear if they are compulsory for them or not. They said, if they asks for clarity would it help and they said agreed but so far they hasn't been given this clarity. And then they said better just to use they/them to avoid offense; is this what they advising now in HR? But then they said they wasn't sure if that information was correct and so they said they would follow up with HR separately. I was wondering if HR replied to them already and if you could forward the guidelines you sent them on this? If you didnt reply to them, please could you reply to them so they can share them onwards or send them to me. I will see if I am able to follow them. The team discussion carried on with them saying they expects some of them would prefer to stick with observed sex-based pronouns as a default option and they should not require them to declare pronouns or default to they/them in absence of a declaration. There is also a lack of clarity surrounding the use of they/them as a singular pronoun and should you still decline the verb in the singular or is it preferred to use the plural form and or is this a matter of personal choice? So these are the areas in which advice is most needed. Thanks in advance for sharing your reply to them. "

I always knew my 5 years at Uni was a waste of time but who am I to complain as I have been called many things but never myopic but there’s a first for everything.

Because you are myopic and self interested, as are most people.

How far back does 'always' go? I'm 62, worked all over the UK as a contractor, and not once has anyone ever referred to me as they/them.

So it goes

It personally wouldn’t bother me as long as my salary goes into my bank account as usual.

There is a reason gender critical is a very niche area of the Internet. If people can't see pieces being put into place for authoritarian control, the whole gender wars being a part then it's on nobody but ourselves. Even gender critical people dismiss the rest as conspiracy, despite seeing a conspiracy roll out in full view. I give up, there is nowhere on the Internet now for free speech, apart from the everyist ones.

I think this is a fight that can't be won. They, haha are being indoctrinated from all angles. I mean it's a tippy toe, but what can you do? Soon enough saying him or her will seem odd.

I’d refuse to state my pronouns as it’s a load of bollocks, but I would tell them that you use sex based pronouns, and if anyone has any doubt over your sex, you’re happy for them to contact you to discuss.

It's almost always used when the sex of the person reffered to is unknown, and some of the new uses are constructed differently than the older ones. It's really not the same.

I don't think that is anything directly to do with gender identity. THey use of they or them to refer to a singular individual, even one who is in no way trans-identified or non-binary or anything, is increasingly common - as in, I am seeing it all the time. Sometimes it's mixed.

Things like: "Rachel is getting her hair cut, then they are going to the cafe."

It may well be related indirectly, people are hearing that usage more and more so are picking it up unconsciously. TYpically women pick up new language trends first, especially younger ones, and HR tends to be female dominated.

Can you ask next time you see the person, with your best puzzled face? - "Just wondering why you're suddenly calling me "they", I'm confused?" And nice skeptical face while they try to explain why they suddenly weren't sure if you were female any more, even though they know you perfectly well, etc etc? 😉

Some people use they / them for everyone. DD teacher referred to her as they and I sent an email back straightaway to say never do that again. They replied saying that they do that for everyone. I can't remember if it was a male or female teacher.

The polite default would be pronouns in line with sex or name unless otherwise specified. Far far higher chance of being right than if you assume they/them. Particularly when referring to people who have been offered the chance to specify and declined it.

Defaulting to they suggests political point scoring to me. That would annoy me far more than the pronoun itself. HR shouldn't be inflicting their politics on you.

I much prefer they/them compared to the default of "dear sirs" that some jobs have had me use if we didn't know the recipient.

I'd consider it fairly "safe" as an option if I wasn't aware of the workplace culture, and/or didn't know colleagues enough to know which ones prefer alternative pronouns yet. It also avoids singling out those with names like Sam, if everyone gets they/them then it isn't as obvious that you don't have a clue what sex they are.