I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

What happens to people like the person in the OP's post whose sex is a topic of speculation but who chooses to present as female?

If you are intent on upholding a deception in your life, then it's kind of up to you to not get involved in something where the deception is inherently going to be an issue, and hence likely to be discovered.

Or if you just want everyone to role play and pretend you're something you're not, it's up to you to not force them into a situation where they have to stop pretending.

As to enforcement, at fun-run level, surely general societal convention is sufficient? People seem to manage to have age categories without a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth about forcing people to show ID.

(The implication often seems to be that males are particularly dishonest and likely to try to break explicit rules. Better to let them in so they don't take the place by force?)

What happens to trans people with a GRC whose passports and birth certificates record them as female?

Well, that doesn't affect transwomen, then. Documentation saying "female" means nothing, so them waving a birth certificate saying "female" isn't going to gain them entry.

But that does mean that women have no way of proving themselves female, so it's a theoretical problem for women. But only a theoretical one. I think women are prepared to put up with that theoretical problem of someone not just believing they're a women if the benefit is keeping men out.

Are runners normally gracious and supportive when they overtake? I suspect that tells you that she knew she should not have been in this race, but that normally being in a low position doesn't draw attention to it.

I was a runner for many years and yes, loads of people are gracious and supportive- you just need to see the videos at the end of marathons where runners sacrifice their own time to get a fellow athlete across the line.

It doesn't take away from the fact that women's sport is at huge risk at present.

There isn't an easy answer to the dilemma faced by the OP.

If the guidelines are made clear from the time of registration, why is there NOT an easy answer.

Seriously. This constant, 'it's difficult', 'it's complicated' infantilises the transitioned males who keep telling us that no one is denying biological sex.

If the regulations state that males of any gender race with males, why is this 'difficult'. OR make it an open category and a female category and no need to 'out' anyone.

If a trans person cannot be relied on making a mature decision to follow the laws/rules/guidance, what does that say about them?

And what does that say about the people defending them to ignore said laws/rules/guidance?

Why does it matter if it is a fun run with a female category winner or an elite sport? Unless it is an open category or mixed sex event only, if the rule should applies the whole way down. Why should only elite female athletes get the benefit of single sex sports and not every other level? It makes no sense.

Change the categories, or change the rules and regulations.

If trans people cannot abide by those rules and regulations they are not allowed to compete or will have their participation in an event where they should have been excluded under those rules & regulations deleted for past wins.

Again, what other category breaches for sports categories are acceptable at any level?

I can see the advantages of an extra transgender/non binary category but that of course assumes every competitor in this category is happy to be 'out'. What happens to people like the person in the OP's post whose sex is a topic of speculation but who chooses to present as female? Is is practicable to ask every woman to show her passport or birth certificate? What happens to trans people with a GRC whose passports and birth certificates record them as female?

There isn't an easy answer to the dilemma faced by the OP. Who will be checking each woman's biological sex before the race begins? The arguments about transgender people in sport are based on balancing inclusion versus fairness. There needs to be discussion about the level to which fairness 'trumps' inclusion. There are clearly some people who think rules about biological sex need to be applied at every level. Others (including me) don't. I'm not saying what should happen, just suggesting that there will be cost and administrative implications for the way sport is organised at community/club level if strict rules about biological sex are applied to mixed sports.

I could very easily infer that she wasn't GC from the context of the call and her inclusion on it.

I will credit you with the imagination to comprehend how that's possible, if you will credit me with the ability to parse what my own eyes and ears are telling me.

No I don't think so. She had blue hair and was leading one of the items on the agenda, which was about diversity.🙄

i am supportive of diversity in the workplace. I also have been known to colour my hair.

believing that others if different race, sex, orientation should be supported in the workplace does not mean I think a man can turn into a woman. Unless her diversity talk was focussed on trans issues?

No I don't think so. She had blue hair and was leading one of the items on the agenda, which was about diversity.🙄

living as a woman

I probably said it. I'm old fashioned, nowadays it's more like "permanantly presenting as a woman" or whatever. As long as I can get across roughly what I mean I can't always be arsed to to nitpick this stuff, it falls apart as soon as you poke it anyway.

She was so very gracious and supportive as she overtook me.

Are runners normally gracious and supportive when they overtake? I suspect that tells you that she knew she should not have been in this race, but that normally being in a low position doesn't draw attention to it.

I would have a lot more respect for TW if they tried to pit themselves against their biological sex. Even not winning - it's always worth aiming for a Personal or Seasons Best.

No joke. A grown, professional woman on a work conference call, with 'meow' as her pronoun. It felt so juvenile, so attention-seeking

really? I’d have assumed it was a GC woman attempting to subvert the whole shit show rather than someone who actually wanter to be referred to as “meow”

I was a on zoom call the other day and one of the participants had their pronouns as they/meow.

No joke. A grown, professional woman on a work conference call, with 'meow' as her pronoun. It felt so juvenile, so attention-seeking.

It may have been me who said living as a woman. If so, I meant they are presenting an image to the world of what a woman looks like as in traditionally female clothes and hairstyles, make up etc

this is the issue most of have though. Being a woman is not a collection of stereotypes. Not one person has been able to define “woman feelings” without resorting to hair, make up and clothes.

Just so that @Ntsure really does get the category issues at stake here is another few.

"this poor heavyweight boxer was just boxing in a fun boxing comp not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as a featherweight"?

"this poor dolphin was just in a fun swim not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as a human"?

"this poor black belt was just fighting in a fun bout not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as a novice"?

Do you understand sports categories and why sports categories exist @Ntsure?

Why do you believe that someone from a category of human that is scientifically and historically been proven and is common knowledge (and we can link up studies that are very recent - and no the science has not changed at all despite what activists would like to think) to have advantage of other categories should be able to compete with a category that lacks that advantage? Ever? Regardless of if it is a 'fun' run event or the Olympics?

I’d get on twitter and tag the likes of Sharon Davies.

it absolutely does matter, but same as the girls racing Lia Thomas you can’t speak out as you’ll just get called transphobic, bitter etc.

if you have any links or tweets we could get on it?

It may have been me who said living as a woman. If so, I meant they are presenting an image to the world of what a woman looks like as in traditionally female clothes and hairstyles, make up etc. This is one of the confusions I have with non binary people as I don’t understand what they mean when they say sometimes they feel female, sometimes they feel male and sometimes they feel neither. What does that mean? 🤷‍♀️I’ve just been trying to work out what the acronym YAWN meant then realised it’s the actual word 😁

To be clear @Ntsure

Would you say any of following?

"this poor 25 year old was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as an under 10 year old"?

"this poor 25 year old was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as an over 75 year old"?

"this poor person with no visual impairment was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing in a category for those with visual impairments"?

"this poor professional athlete was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice by competing as an amateur"?

"this poor sportsperson who failed a sports drug test was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice"?

If not, why do you think it is appropriate that a transitioned male who has been through male puberty should be able to compete with females?

Why? Because you wish to ignore the competitive advantage that a male who has been through a male puberty has over a female body?

Sports should be based on sex not gender. Gender identification can be anything you want it to be ranging from the opposite sex to a Dualit toaster. Gender is not a real, tangible thing outside a person’s brain and thought processes. Universities are now telling people the pronouns of anyone who identifies as a cat (I kid you not).

@motherofthelittlescreamingone

“Be proud to be a trans woman, but accept that this is not the same as being born female.”

One sentence that neatly sums up the whole situation.

Again on this thread a poster has quoted 'living as a woman', I am still waiting for someone to define what this is and how a man knows he is 'living as a woman'.

Anyway the facts are this, transwomen are cheating. Most of them are taking drugs, sounds like this competitor is.

That said not all transwomen believe this is fair. There is golfer, Alison Perkins, who is a transwoman who competes in golf, in the correct sex category ie. with the men, good for them. There is another Scottish golfer however, Hailey Davidson, who finds it irritating that there is opposition to tw competing in womens sports and adds that she didn't have the longest drive so there you go, proving there's no advantage. YAWN. Unfortunately you will always get people who cheat.

Cheat.

'The male' was the appropriate sex designator for this purpose. This person is male. Not quite sure whether you missed the memo, trans people have told us that they are not denying their sex.

My 'objection' is very clear, I agree. Your 'objection' lacks any critical thought or any evidential basis.

The fact you have not addressed anything else in my posts about either category boundary changes, nor the comparison about a cyclist with a clear advantage coming third in the Tour de France.

Instead, you have resorted to more hyperbole.

this poor woman was just running in a fun run not trying to cause some kind of injustice

This person was 'just running' in a fun run in a category that was set up to allow females to have a category in the sport to compete fairly. Just because it is a 'fun run' doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to females to have meaningful competition.

The injustice resulted, whether it was intended to be an 'injustice' or not. This is supposedly a mature adult male who has their own agency. That they have decided that fairness in female's competitions do not matter to them, is their issue to resolve and acknowledge.

Because you cannot deny the truth.

The truth in this instance is that a male ran in a female sports category with the intention of running in the female sports category. They deliberately registered as a female when they are not.

But please do crack on telling females to 'be kind' and implying that we are transphobic for pointing out that in this instance, sex matters. In many instances in life, it does not matter.

But in this situation, sex does matter.

The truth is that it is not really possible to change sex. Of course legally it is, but this is a fiction in biological terms.

You can see that @Ntsure really desperately wants everyone to believe TWAW but it is not literally true biologically. A transwoman who has gone through puberty will still have a body that is male and confers advantage in terms of strength.

Everyone here has no desire to persecute trans women and wants them to live dignified lives, but why should women have to pretend something that is to their detriment? To be honest, I think that a trans woman who truly believes that there is absolutely no category difference between them and women probably needs more counselling to accept who they are, not just what they want others to think of them - unfortunately, there will always be "female" things that exclude them due to basic biology and the solution really shouldn't be about coercing society (and women in particular) never to mention them or to celebrate their biology for fear of being "exclusionary". Be proud to be a trans woman, but accept that this is not the same as being born female.

This matters. It's the shhh keep quiet it's ok don't want to make a fuss or be seen to be anything other than an ally that will be the end of competitive sports for women.

@Ntsure

That is a crazy argument. The fact that there are two women who beat the trans woman doesn't mean that the trans woman doesn't have a general advantage - it just means that the trans woman was a not very good male runner and so can't totally trounce all female runners. Up until he was 50, my dad could beat 20 year old me at most long distances due to strength, but I was relatively far better in my category.

And I think we all know what the OP meant. It wasn't intended to be mean.

I see it as a measure of just how deep “hidden” misogyny goes.

This is how truly second class we still are under the shiny surface of our hard gained rights and legal equality. That this could happen at all.