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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

431 replies

Athleticpotential · 12/05/2022 07:06

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

OP posts:
0dette · 12/05/2022 17:45

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 12/05/2022 15:28

I wonder why trans women want to run against actual females anyway, the victories are so hollow and they must know that.

People want to socialise with the same people they usually socialise with. This was a fun run so mainly social with only a bit of competition thrown in.

The opportunity for victory was unexpected and the "victory" might well have felt hollow afterwards but refusing the place would have been noticeable and required explanations and fuss. "Today I'll go on a fun run and out myself".

Two fair options for the runner concerned.

  1. Enter the men’s category. In this case it would only be the organisers that know this, assuming that the results are not published.
  1. Enter the womens category and note they are “ assisted “.
Of course neither option would result in a prize or high place. But I’m sure they wouldn’t mind that at all as many many posters here have pointed out that this “ poor woman “ is just running to have fun and not do anyone out of a place.
Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 12/05/2022 17:44

I don't think transwomen are men pretending to be women. Its more that they are males who see women in a particular way, see us a social role, or a 'look', as a group that they wish to emulate and be included as part of for a variety of personal reasons.

Anyway, what I am sure about is that transwomen are not female. And we compete in sport with our sexed bodies, not our stereotypical social role or presentation.

So why on earth transwomen think competing in female sport is acceptable I can only ascribe to male privilege and entitlement.

BuanoKubiamVej · 12/05/2022 17:43

It does matter. I don't know what I would do in your place though. It's tricky.

I run in a local running group and do local 10k races.

In the running group, the relatively unfit, low effort blokes run at about the same speed as the women who are putting in quite a bit of effort. If these men had the same level of fitness as the women in the group they would be significantly faster.

When we do 10k races, I and the other runners from my group are nowhere near the elite. Around the 50th "centile" of speeds for all entrants. But the race results portal lets you see your result from just among your own sex and age class - and for me, with my category I am 40th centile ie 40% of entrants in that category run faster than me and 60% run slower, and I feel proud of that. The unfit bloke who runs at the same speed as me, in his sex and age category, goes in the other direction - significantly below average speed. There's no prizes to be won in the mediocre range where we are but the idea that unfit bloke could pretend his minimal effort was basically a way better outcome just by self-IDing as a woman is insulting to the efforts of the women who train hard to get to that level. it is relevant and important to know how your speed ranking compares to others in the same category, and that is biological sex, not a feeling in the head. If the category was gender I don't even know what I would put because I certainly don't "identify" as female. I happen to have a female body, which I spent most of my life hating. Getting into running is helping with that a bit.

MarshaBradyo · 12/05/2022 17:43

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:39

You do hear the word cis man. A lot actually. In fact I would say I hear it a lot more often than cis women. Just not on here because they specifically take issue with trans women so it’s never relevant.

If women say to you they find it offensive would you stop using it?

Supersee · 12/05/2022 17:43

So it's only trans people/TRA's that are able to dictate what is acceptable language?

TheMarzipanDildo · 12/05/2022 17:39

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:34

AmaryllisNightAndDay Referring to non trans women as “proper women” infers that trans women are what, improper women? Not women at all?
calling cis women, cis, isn’t anything other than a description there’s nothing derogatory or negative about it

In what way are trans women women though? (Sorry to derail but when people say this it’s always interesting to know what they actually mean!)

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:39

You do hear the word cis man. A lot actually. In fact I would say I hear it a lot more often than cis women. Just not on here because they specifically take issue with trans women so it’s never relevant.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 12/05/2022 17:39

Others on this site clearly take issue with everything trans people do, insist on calling them “men pretending to be women” etc

I'm tempted to say, "How odd," and recall discussions about helpful interventions or thoughtful work by Rose of Dawn, Debbie Hayden, Miranda Yardley, Fionne Orlander etc. and appreciation for the courage and work of Kiera Bell, Sinead Watson and so many others to whom we're indebted for so many reasons.

However, is this an example of, "Tell me that you're not familiar with the discussions on FWR without telling me that you're not familiar etc."?

DameHelena · 12/05/2022 17:39

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:28

cis isn’t offensive, and it’s useful when having a discussion about trans women (because yes I believe trans women ARE women, so I will refer to them as such so how else would you like me to distinguish for the purpose of discussion)
no one actually thinks it’s offensive it’s a pretence to infer that trans women aren’t women.
Some people have an issue with trans women competing in female sports- fair concern, plenty of room for discussion on that. Others on this site clearly take issue with everything trans people do, insist on calling them “men pretending to be women” etc

I find cis offensive. Or does that not matter?
It is also something like compelled speech, which I think human rights bodies tend to take a dim view of. As a pp says, it also hampers women from describing and discussing the problems. And it is another stick to beat women with, along with what we do as mothers/if we're too tough/not tough enough at work/if we smile too much or not enough/what we wear, what we weigh, etc etc etc.

MarshaBradyo · 12/05/2022 17:38

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:34

AmaryllisNightAndDay Referring to non trans women as “proper women” infers that trans women are what, improper women? Not women at all?
calling cis women, cis, isn’t anything other than a description there’s nothing derogatory or negative about it

That is personal, you can’t know for other women

I find it very negative

Riverlee · 12/05/2022 17:37

Please do not use the term cis women. There are women, trans women, men, and trans men. Funny how you never hear the term ‘cis men ‘ (or would it be ‘bro man’?!)..

Pondsprite2 · 12/05/2022 17:36

I think people should start recognizing second place female winners as first place winners if a trans woman "wins" first.
Most the general public is against trans women in women's sports and we can collectively give credit to the real FEMALE winners regardless of what media or those at the top of organizations say.

Athleticpotential · 12/05/2022 17:35

If this person couldn't have known they would end up 3rd when they overtook, why did they bother to be gracious and supportive?

Because that's what we do. A runner expecting to finish in the 100s in a larger race will often still call out some encouragement as they pass someone

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 12/05/2022 17:35
  1. males should never be entered into races against females - unless its car racing!
  2. why are masculine looking women ‘unfortunate’?
Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:34

AmaryllisNightAndDay Referring to non trans women as “proper women” infers that trans women are what, improper women? Not women at all?
calling cis women, cis, isn’t anything other than a description there’s nothing derogatory or negative about it

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 12/05/2022 17:32

cis isn’t offensive, and it’s useful when having a discussion about trans women

Oh, I'm all for sauce for the gander and sauce for the goose. Just cos you happen to think cis isn't offensive that doesn't make it inoffensive. And if you want to call women "cis" then I can call them "proper", though maybe I'd settle for "material". Grin

Athleticpotential · 12/05/2022 17:32

Are runners normally gracious and supportive when they overtake? I suspect that tells you that she knew she should not have been in this race, but that normally being in a low position doesn't draw attention to it.

Yes, absolutely they are actually, at this level, even those who are unable to speak will make a tumbs up or similar

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 12/05/2022 17:30

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:28

cis isn’t offensive, and it’s useful when having a discussion about trans women (because yes I believe trans women ARE women, so I will refer to them as such so how else would you like me to distinguish for the purpose of discussion)
no one actually thinks it’s offensive it’s a pretence to infer that trans women aren’t women.
Some people have an issue with trans women competing in female sports- fair concern, plenty of room for discussion on that. Others on this site clearly take issue with everything trans people do, insist on calling them “men pretending to be women” etc

I find it so

you can use it for you but I don’t accept the term for me

RandomUsernameHere · 12/05/2022 17:30

Congratulations on what should have rightly been third place, OP.
This definitely matters. Amateur sport is important to many people and allowing men to compete against women has consequences. For example qualification for the major marathons. There are only so many places. If there are more time qualifiers than places then the fastest runners in each age and sex category get in. To those saying it doesn't matter at an amateur level, you're wrong. It matters to tens of thousands of people. If I missed out on the Boston Marathon, or the London Marathon, or any of them, because a man cheated, it would really, really matter to me.
I would complain in this instance (making it clear it's the principle of it, not the bottle of wine, you're bothered about).

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:29

morescrummythanyummy- nothing would be wrong with that.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 12/05/2022 17:29

Are people really allowed to say things like “proper women that is” and “men pretending to be women” on this site and claim it’s NOT transphobia?

I dunno, but this constant policing of women's language plus the endless demand for self-policing is exhausting and silencing and it hampers women from even describing and discussing what the problems are, much less expressing our feelings about them (which are not always sweetness and light, any more than they are for any other contenious issue here)

You've only got to read the bewildering definiton I linked to on Wikipedia to see that there's a big problem. No-one who didn't already know could have used that definiton to figure out that transwomen are born physically male.

And I still have to work out patiently in my head what physical sex a "transwoman" is and then find some complicated way to express it which isn't simply "man" or "male". It's like that experiment where someone writes the word "blue" in red ink and "red" in blue ink. Most people naturally read the colour they see and not the word as written. Women are being tongue-tied.

Though I think that we are allowed to use the terms you quote above as long as it's general not individual. Callling it transphopbia doesn't make it transphobia.

Ntsure · 12/05/2022 17:28

cis isn’t offensive, and it’s useful when having a discussion about trans women (because yes I believe trans women ARE women, so I will refer to them as such so how else would you like me to distinguish for the purpose of discussion)
no one actually thinks it’s offensive it’s a pretence to infer that trans women aren’t women.
Some people have an issue with trans women competing in female sports- fair concern, plenty of room for discussion on that. Others on this site clearly take issue with everything trans people do, insist on calling them “men pretending to be women” etc

morescrummythanyummy · 12/05/2022 17:28

And @Ntsure what would be wrong with having separate TW/TM categories? Or having an open category?

TheMarzipanDildo · 12/05/2022 17:27

PermanentTemporary · 12/05/2022 17:18

I've reported one post and I'd encourage anyone else who wants to to do the same.

Ach, I never bother reporting anything. Sunlight and all that.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 12/05/2022 17:25

🙄
some of you are so weird. You think a man’s hurt feelings matter more than women being discriminated against