I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

"We live in a gendered society" means that society imposes sex role stereotypes on us based on our bodies' sex.

When we say that someone acting according to those stereotypes is literally the associated sex, regardless of what sex they actually are, we are saying that those gendered stereotypes are more accurate, relevant and important than someone's actual sex. And people that don't actively have those stereotypical characteristics are "not real men" or "not real women". That is what "cis" is saying
because it's part of the belief system that buys into gender stereotypes above all else.

An opinion piece was published yesterday on what should be done about trans women's inclusion in women's sports. The writer tells women to accept some unfairness.

That piece is such a wonderful example of the confidence men often seem to have on issues they clearly haven't studied to any depth. To me the piece sounds like something a student would write, but published it got.

You believe you live in a gendered society, I choose not to and to live my life as someone who is just me with a body that is a particular sex.

No cis. I ask again, please stop using it, it is offensive.

Now, any answers to any of the questions you’ve been asked?

While it may entertain you to continue sparpling and distracting, you very lack of ability to answer the questions shows a great deal too.

I ageee with it 🤷🏻‍♀️
but we live in a gendered society so saying “gender is bullshit” means little in real terms

I find cis offensive. It has a definition as a person whose abstract gender identity happens to correlate with the sex of their body. Some also add that a cis person is comfortable with the gender roles and rules assigned to their sex in a particular culture.

I protest two things in that: First, I do NOT possess an abstract gender identity, and it's not right that others can simply impose one on me. I am a woman because I live in a female body. You could interpret that in a loose sense an identity, but it is NOT abstract. It is based on biological sex and how the society treats me because my sex is female.

Second, I am not comfortable with the gender roles and rules assigned to my sex.

I doubt that many people now called cis possess an abstact gender identity, but even if some do others are now left without any name for their gender.

Women and trans women, men and trans men is perfectly fine.

This exactly. What is your response to this, Ntsure?

@Ntsure when you ignore the question I asked you, why not at least try to think in your head what you genuinely believe the answer to be, even if you don't want to share it on here?

Either you believe women have a shared set of characteristics other than their bodies - if so, what are they? - or you believe a woman can be any kind of female-bodied person.

I'm sure somewhere out there is a woman who is the polar opposite from me in terms of race, looks, abilities, taste in music, physical skill, life experiences, sexual orientation, political views, belief... we would still share the common factor of having a female body. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less, but that's what the word "woman" describes.

Mostly someone's sex is utterly unimportant. Sometimes, it's very important. That's when we need a word to accurately name it.

whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing

yes, gender is bullshit. Sex, however, is simple, and definitely tangible.

I find it offensive. QED, it's offensive.

Referring to non trans women as “proper women” infers that trans women are what, improper women? Not women at all?
calling cis women, cis, isn’t anything other than a description there’s nothing derogatory or negative about it

@Ntsure
Well people used to claim that the word N*gger wasn’t derogatory. They said it was just a factual description of black people / people of African American heritage.

Lots of other people disagreed.

Same with P*ki referring to people from Pakistan. “ Nothing negative “ people like you said.

Words matter. You don’t get to redefine half the human race to suit your own political agenda.

Others on this site clearly take issue with everything trans people do, insist on calling them “men pretending to be women” etc

and those posts get deleted pretty quickly. So, I would suggest you deal with your own prejudices here about posters on MN and I request formally that you cease using ‘cis’.

We are discussing sports which is categorized by sex and not gender. Therefore your ‘cis’ is offensive and irrelevant.

Maybe though, you’d like to actually present some evidence why you believe that males should be able to compete in any female category.

@Ntsure why do you think any male should be able to compete in the female category after they have experienced any male puberty?

^cis isn’t offensive, and it’s useful when having a discussion about trans women (because yes I believe trans women ARE women, so I will refer to them as such so how else would you like me to distinguish for the purpose of discussion)
no one actually thinks it’s offensive it’s a pretence to infer that trans women aren’t women.^

You can believe that black is white or the earth this flat , or that the sun goes round the earth. But it doesn't make it so. Transwomen are biological men, of the male sex.

women are women, never cis women

we don’t need any other descriptions than woman. We’re female.

trans women are trans women. They’re not women because they are born male. They can never be female.

it’s only complicated because men want to make it so complicated that yet again women lose the rights they fought for, the safety of single sex spaces, sports that we’ve fought to compete in on a level playing field.

cis is a manufactured term being used against women predominately.

men do not decide what women are called.

Who? Who has said that?

Name them. Or stop building straw men.

Do you think you can answer some of the questions asked of you?

or … are you only interested in denigrating posters for not agreeing with you and instead believe the science and the evidence?

Because currently, all readers are seeing from you is telling people off. It does not have the effect you think it will for the thousands of posters who are reading or will read this thread.

Unfortunate woman is a great username. And you should complain. Testing boundaries is how women get stamped on.

whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing

no, it isn’t.

sex is binary. You’re male or female. And don’t start with DSD, they are still male or female.

gender is a collection of stereotypes. To decide whether a person is cis or trans they choose which set of societally imposed stereotypes they prefer.

the mere existence of “cis” and “trans” also reinforces the binary. You can’t be trans if there is no “opposite” to align with.

Also, what message does it send to younger girls? Might as well give up now as if there's a transgender women involved, they already have an advantage?

of course it matters, it wasn't fair. Im very sorry for you. Follow Sharon Davies on Twitter and tell her about it. She's a very good advocate for fair play in sports for women.

in what way is that misogynistic?

women are people who identify as women.

You must see that this isn't a definition. What is the thing that they are identifying as - female people?
Feminine people?

The only thing female people have in common is their biology. Not their character, skills, cultural femininity, behaviour, etc.

What is the thing that you claim women have in common - the thing that makes them women?

Yea well done, trans women are trans women

they are not women

and so women are people who identify as women.whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing.

Yesssss.... Goood.... Just let the misogyny flow through you!

well whilst I’m all for idea that gender is a social construct (it is), we live in a gendered society, and so women are people who identify as women.whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing.