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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

431 replies

Athleticpotential · 12/05/2022 07:06

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

OP posts:
Peregrina · 12/05/2022 10:34

UKA says
In addition there may be trans people who do not undergo sex reassignment surgery and will continue to present with secondary sex characteristics in their former gender.

Oh come on. A penis is not a secondary sex characteristic. That's the first thing you look for when a baby is born. You don't wait until puberty to see if a willy grows. (Although in some DSD cases, that might happen, but we aren't discussing DSD.)

InvisibleDragon · 12/05/2022 10:32

Not saying you haven't got a right to be disappointed, but I guess the counter argument would be when and how do sportspeople who have transitioned join in with these events?

Do we just say male to female trans people have to have their own races and events? that's not going to work is it, there won't be enough?

I think this does work. In the OP's race, there was just one race, but competitors were ranked in different categories.

This race perhaps just had male/female categories but other races organised in this way include age group categories and (sometimes, mostly in America -- www.bestinthewesttriathlon.com/divisions.html) weight-based categories.

Quite often when you have lots of small subcategories, there are only a few (sometimes 1 or 2!) competitors in a category. Nobody minds.

I see no reason why transgender athletes can't have their own category/ies in these races. It's how it works for everyone else.

Loopyloopy · 12/05/2022 10:31

viques · 12/05/2022 10:12

I mean there would be three sections, women, men, gender neutral. If transmen wanted to run they would run in the gender neutral race, where sadly they would get beaten by the transwomen, but that’s another story…..

Why do we need a men's section? Just make it an Open section, don't restrict it to men.

Loopyloopy · 12/05/2022 10:29

Is she definitely a trans woman, op? Did she say that? Not a woman with, eg, an endocrine issue?

NotAGirl · 12/05/2022 10:27

KohlaParasaurus · 12/05/2022 09:59

The risk of asking the organiser to jump through the hoop of offering a separate category for transgender people is that many organisers of these grassroots "fun" races would decide not to bother putting on the race at all, which would benefit none of us. Because how do you police it? And what transwoman is going to choose to race in a category that labels them as "not actually a woman", especially if they believe they are "living as a woman"?

So you think women should suck up unfair treatment in case it spoils things for the men as well?

HazelBite · 12/05/2022 10:26

DS is a runner (elite) I know what his position is on a national basis. If he were to run "as a women" he would wipe the floor with the other race participants.
Whilst I am generally sympathetic to "trans" people, in competitive sport and in many walks of life, what is "fair" needs to be looked at and decided.

NerrSnerr · 12/05/2022 10:26

I don't know if it has been posted but this is the UKA transgender policy from 2016, I can't find anything more recent.

Race permits are from UKA not EAA (aren't they?) so I think it's UKA who need to be contacted with concerns.

genderarchive.org.uk/assets/pdfs/United%20Kingdom%20Athletics%20-%20Transgender%20Policy%20Guidance%20for%20Athletics%20Clubs%20and%20Competition%20Providers.pdf

Loopyloopy · 12/05/2022 10:19

Sorry, not forced to identify as a man to compete without competing in the women's section.

Loopyloopy · 12/05/2022 10:18

viques · 12/05/2022 10:12

I mean there would be three sections, women, men, gender neutral. If transmen wanted to run they would run in the gender neutral race, where sadly they would get beaten by the transwomen, but that’s another story…..

Two divisions. Women and open. That means that you are not forced to identify as a man to compete in the women's section. Very athletic women can even compete in the open if they wish. However, we keep a protected section for the 50% of the population who are less likely to engage in physical exercise.

Peregrina · 12/05/2022 10:15

Transwomen aren't banned though - they can race as what they are which is biological, or 'cis' if you like, males. OK those who chose to take hormones to lower their testosterone which might put them at a disadvantage - that's their choice.

Male to transfemale in a trans category wouldn't work because they would all have gone through male puberty, so there would be no advantage.

It really isn't difficult.

viques · 12/05/2022 10:12

theemperorhasnoclothes · 12/05/2022 09:30

Do we think any biological women would run in the gender neutral section? Not many I'm betting

I mean there would be three sections, women, men, gender neutral. If transmen wanted to run they would run in the gender neutral race, where sadly they would get beaten by the transwomen, but that’s another story…..

Catapultaway · 12/05/2022 10:11

Athleticpotential · 12/05/2022 07:49

I agree completely, but what would your club/events do if a trans woman wanted to compete?. Would you even know? Like with this person, there's been speculation because of her appearance but no one officially "knows".

It doesn't matter at all that I missed out on a bottle of wine. It does matter that I missed the rare opportunity to be placed Grin but it really matters that this is happening to women's sport.

So nobody actually knows if she is trans or not?
You say you spoke to her previously and never knew... What makes you think you know now?

IcakethereforeIam · 12/05/2022 10:10

Congrats on 3rd Wine. It does matter.

I might have been petty enough to ask for my £2 back.

Fromwaleswithlurv · 12/05/2022 10:09

Not saying you haven't got a right to be disappointed, but I guess the counter argument would be when and how do sportspeople who have transitioned join in with these events?

Do we just say male to female trans people have to have their own races and events? that's not going to work is it, there won't be enough?

Some kind of handicap/penalty when they compete with CIS women?

I genuinely don't know the answer, but ' making' trans women compete with males, or banning them from competitive sporting activity at any level seems a bit harsh ( although no more harsh then a CIS women being denied a prize/medal /place on a national or local team due to a trans woman competing)

Such a difficult situation.

lightand · 12/05/2022 10:01

Athleticpotential · 12/05/2022 08:42

I have supported women in elite sport the best way I can, I haven't done "nothing", but yes this is the first time it's been brought home to me that it matters in fun sport too and the first time, as someone directly involved, that I've felt that there could/should be some direct action I can take.

And yes maybe more should have been done years ago, but that surely doesn't mean we do nothing now?

No. But it is all too little, too late.
It is an established thing now.

JudgeJ · 12/05/2022 10:01

It's for charity. I'm sure this person has had enough problems in life and enough hatred. Don't take the fun run away from them too.

Tough, why should the OP and others be bullied into accepting this nonsense because of someone else's alleged 'problems in life'? Well all have our problems, we don't cheat our way through life on the back of them however.

TheOrigRights · 12/05/2022 10:00

While it's not the same exact issue, I am relentless in my pursuit of women being recognised in my club.

Race reports will say e.g. ManA was the first home for the club.

I keep telling them that they need to say ManA was the first man and WomanA was the first woman; that their achievements are the same.

And don't even get me started on the unfairness of holding a race where you have to have achieved a certain time to qualify ie the women have to be relatively better than the men. In the end I was more angry about the men just not getting it and trying to stop me worrying my poor little head about it.

TopKnotch · 12/05/2022 09:59

Oh, disappointed to read this about Parkrun. Apparently there are a selection of categories you can self identify into - so the records and placing as male/female and age categorised etc are all pointless really?

And apparently, "all women are different and being transgender is just one of many different aspects of a person." So that's all ok then.

blog.parkrun.com/uk/2020/02/12/where-i-know-im-always-welcome/

KohlaParasaurus · 12/05/2022 09:59

The risk of asking the organiser to jump through the hoop of offering a separate category for transgender people is that many organisers of these grassroots "fun" races would decide not to bother putting on the race at all, which would benefit none of us. Because how do you police it? And what transwoman is going to choose to race in a category that labels them as "not actually a woman", especially if they believe they are "living as a woman"?

JudgeJ · 12/05/2022 09:58

Phos · 12/05/2022 07:25

I agree it’s completely unfair that this person entered the race but unfortunately I’d be concerned that entering a complaint would just get you labelled as transphobic.

Yet another word to shut down discussion, as long as people are bullied into not speaking by these words it will continue.
The fact is that the OP came 2nd in reality. Maybe suggest that next year there are three races for three categories, M, F and T then maybe the other person will be first!

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 12/05/2022 09:57

what identification do they require for entry?

I wouldn't ask about identification, because what identification do you have in mind? Do you want all women to show a birth certificate to compete? And even a birth certificate would be a filter to keep numbers down but with a GRC someone who's been through male puberty could have a female birth certificate.

puffyisgood · 12/05/2022 09:56

LampLighter414 · 12/05/2022 09:16

Accept your defeat graciously

I think the expression you're looking for is that OP should 'grow a pair', right? Though my experience suggests that in practice that's harder than it sounds.

kerryleigh · 12/05/2022 09:56

It does matter. They shouldn't compete as woman, as they have a clear advantage and it's not fair. The level of competition doesn't matter.

TheOrigRights · 12/05/2022 09:56

Where was this race? I'd expect a race in the UK to be governed by UKA not EAA.

I desperately want to find the rules, but am at work and really don't have time.
I am a competitive runner (club not national or anything like that!).

Can you tell me more about it (by pm if you don't want to out yourself).

And well done on doing so well.