Non binary rant

Sorry to steal this but it so succinctly says what I need to tell my dd constantly I've copied and pasted to my notes app. Thanks!

I don't understand how all the politicians, celebrities, etc. can support, even encourage this

Usually when something seems hard to understand, follow the money. This age group sets trends, and trends make money.

I know this isn't an original thought, but there's unrealistic beauty standards too. When I, many years ago, began developing, my bod didn't look like the ones on page 3, they didn't have veins! Nowadays it's much worse, with filters and photoshopping. Impossible standards, literally impossible. Even the women in the pictures don't look like the women in the pictures.

My child says it is about how people respond to her as a girl that she doesn’t want. I am pretty sure part of this for my child is avoiding unwanted sexual attention from men.

I think this is something that's common for girls to feel, and also for boys though perhaps in a slightly different way. It's totally normal to feel unready for sexual relationships and the expectations around those, and so the development of secondary sexual characteristics that launch you in a sense into this world of people who notice each other sexually is scary.

I think that's probably why some teen girls seem to focus on these very unassuming young teen boys who don't look much different from girls themselves, boy band types.

But coming to terms with ourselves as sexual beings is an important part of growing up, whatever we decide to do about it, whether or not we want to have a relationship with someone. And that includes coming to terms with the fact that other people will notice us in that way.

I think you are right that this can be part of trying to back away from that, just like girls used to take refuge in baggy sweaters or whatever. But I wonder what we are supposed to do to help girls work though this kind of thing? Because calling yourself a boy and taking hormones to grow facial hair, or getting a mastectomy do not seem to be approaches that will have good outcomes.

Fair enough.

No, and I'm not saying it does. I'm not here to either praise or bury non-binary identities.

I have told my oldest my feeling that if it's the case a person objects to stereotypes, it is a stronger position to own one's sex and express oneself however one wants and that to make oneself an exception is less likely to affect change. I expect they will see that eventually but I'm not going to labour the point.

feel a profound disjunct from a binary gender identity

This can only happen if you adhere to sex role stereotypes and have fixed ideas of both sexes. It's a label for people who reject that these stereotypes, which they generally believe in for other people, apply to them specifically. I'm glad your friends are happy but it's basically like saying you are happier living as a goth or in a 24/7 master and slave relationship, it has no foundation in scientific reality.

I don't understand how all the politicians, celebrities, etc. can support, even encourage this. My youngest dabbles mostly, I hope, to try to get a rise out of me 'cause 'terf'. I have nothing really useful to say, I suspect any advice I might have you've already tried and rejected or are doing your best to follow.
How can someone like Nokes read these threads and still be able to sleep at night?

I can't claim to be an expert on non binaryness, but I do know a couple of adults who feel a profound disjunct from a binary gender identity and are living much more happily identifying that way and have been doing so for some time. But as I said, I think it's rare, definitely not something that there's a dozen instances of in a year in school.

Most of my DD’s friends are non binary. Dd is pansexual apparently. I don’t really care what she wears, who she dates etc.. but I don’t really understand why everything has to have a label. I guess if I was a teen now I would be calling myself non binary, I am female but I don’t conform as your regular female, I don’t wear make up, i wear clothes that could be often classed as male clothing, I have short hair and most of my friends are male, I’ve never worn high heal shoes and never had my eyebrows done 🤣 but I’m still very much female and don’t feel the need to label myself. I don’t see why wearing what I want needs to be labelled as anything different. I try telling dd this but it causes arguments so we no longer talk about it.

So many of dd's friends are 'non-binary'. There's a group of 5 or 6 'cool girls' in her year and it seems to be all they talk about. Aged 13. I think it's more a positive fashion statement for them rather than being linked to any dysphoria. I find it alarming that 'just' being a girl is seen as so uncool.

Another thing that winds me up is the term non-binary. Excuse my extreme pedantry but 'binary' refers to the fact that there are two sexes. No individual is 'binary' (dictionary definition - relating to, composed of, or involving two things). And non-binary would indicate not being composed of two things - so just the one sex like everyone else then??

Yes, that's hard. Would helping her with assertiveness work? She can't control how others act towards her, but she is able to control how she responds. I'm wondering about self defence classes, martial arts, something that lets her explore how strong her body is.

Sounds so stressful, sad and draining. I guess every teenager since time began has been though a phase of thinking that their parents know nothing, and they know it all, but this is so much more intense as it's all being fuelled by social media

Indeed.

For a lot of AFAB kids into it

Sex is observed at birth. It's not a meaningless label.

I do think there are a tiny number of people who are genuinely non-binary, and I know one or two adults who I think it really is a thing for.

What do you mean by "genuinely non binary"? This can only be based on sex role stereotypes. People aren't more or less "male" or "female" psychologically.

The 'Gender, a wider lens' podcast has a good episode on non-binary identities:

There's a really great insight about exploring what such a declaration is trying to communicate, and that it may be a pretty generalised 'Non' to all kinds of things.

Thank you @IcakethereforeIam

We are quite a few years into it all TBH and just feeling very weary and worn down.We've tried setting boundaries - they go to their room and self-harm. What do you do? We've tried it all.

@Nightmare2022my child says the same thing about their breasts. They can't wait to have mutilating surgery and can't see that their feelings might change after surgery. They are now most definitely a transman and can't see that changing ever so can we use their proper pronouns. It's like a living hell.

Another row last night - not with my eldest they were staying with their partner - but with my DS, who is a huge supporter of the transition. He's 13, so easily led, and I worry for him. He's currently parrotting all the right words to keep onside with my eldest without really thinking about the consequences. I think they have swallowed the trans rhetoric without asking themselves why.

I feel a little broken this morning so I'm going to take it easy for a bit. There's a way through this that doesn't involve huge amounts of conflict. Thanks @Phobiaphobic for your kind words - yes, we are the tether to reality in an insane world. Just got to keep that grip on it.

@BluesandClues thank you for sharing. That is helpful and I think is indeed similar to my child

@MangyInseam thank you that is a good explanation. I would like to read more. Can you recommend any books or articles?

@Echobelly yes I am following the same approach as you.

@Wbeezer I agree, my ASD child is completely out of their depth compared to NT peers. They don’t seem to understand the basic mechanics of a friendship. I have realised I need to spell it out to them, (and I’m not brilliant at it myself)

I do say this, but we live in a society obsessed with looks and people respond to you based on how you look. My child says it is about how people respond to her as a girl that she doesn’t want. I am pretty sure part of this for my child is avoiding unwanted sexual attention from men.

Echobelly says "I do think there are a tiny number of people who are genuinely non-binary..." But what is non-binary?

Being non-binary is a state of relationship with gender stereotypes not a relationship with your body, despite what some TRA try to tell you. I'd tell them that our bodies do not actually signal our identities, again despite what TRAs tell you. Most people are non-binary with no body alteration needed.

Name changed for this.

My DS has been a Trans-man for a long time. My DD declared they were non binary a few years after their brother came out. I am sure there is a connection

I would also say that it's totally normal for any teenager to feel really unmoored.

Anyone who has a radical change in the size and dimensions and shape of their body tends to feel like they don't belong in it. Most girls struggle to some extent to adjust to the practicalities of menstruation. Looking in the mirror and seeing someone who looks different than your mental image of yourself is disturbing.

One of the biggest tasks of adolescence is to rebuild that sense of connectedness to the body, and also to construct an integrated adult personality, both internally coherent, but also with new kinds of relationships to the environment and to other people.

The beginning of that by it's very nature will feel disconnected, alienated, confused, and incoherent. Telling teenagers that feelings like that mean something is wrong has to be about the worst possible thing. And telling them that becoming an integrated, connected adult might involve changing their body, gender, name, pronouns, etc, is making the whole task all the harder. Because it's those boundaries created by reality that give teenagers stable things to begin to build upon, like waypoints on a map. Without those realities, it's just chaos and order is not going to just emerge from it spontaneously.

@BluesandClues i read somewhere that a useful guide is to expect young people with ASD to have an emotional and social age two thirds of their actual age. Seems about right with regard to my kids.