Single sex toilets and muslim women

In Iran it is illegal to be gay. They have the death sentence for gay men and women. But being trans is totally fine. So there are no gay men in Iran. Plenty of trans women in relationships with straight men though. And straight women with trans men.

It's the epitome of homophobia. And every person who uses Trans as an example of inclusivity and freedom in Iran is guilty homophobia too.

No I don’t think anyone here is going to tell women to get over their trauma or abandon their religion.

I've been told on here to get over my trauma.

They have done this in a large prestigious new building opened recently at the University I work at, too. All toilets can be used by everyone.

Apart from the cultural and religious issues, which are clearly really important, it worries me for all teenage female students who are often away from home for the first time and may be feeling vulnerable, and who may have suffered sexual abuse, or are the victim of stalking by a male student - or who have just split up with someone and wouldn't want to potentially end up in an enclosed intimate space with that male student (or males in general).

It seems very much (and unnecessarily) all or nothing at the moment.

Surely it would make sense to have a mix with some "free for all" facilities but also toilets on every floor that are female only.

But this is the thing, isn't it?

'Some' and 'most' is not all.

What are we going to do about the women who can no longer go into spaces like toilets, refuges, rape crisis services, because they're not part of the group of women lucky enough to be able to use mixed sex spaces?

Just accept that some females have to be excluded from anything so that male people can have their absolute freedom of choice to select their preference from everything?

Surely the answer is third spaces, and it being reasonable to expect male people to respect that female people have an equal need for access and inclusion?

The reason trans women trump orthodox jewish and muslim women is because trans women are men and men always want to prevail I suppose. Plus ca change - women at the bottom of the pile, real women.

Are you saying that TW would refuse to respect female only spaces that permitted some females their only access?

oh dear! It is deja vu, isn’t it? We keep repeating this over and over and it never seems to sink in. Generally the poster asking disappears without answering. So… maybe this time we will get an answer.

No I don’t think anyone here is going to tell women to get over their trauma or abandon their religion.

Is it ever going to be possible or reasonable to guarantee 100% that there won’t be trans women in toilets anywhere? A Muslim community centre maybe. But everywhere else? Does that mean that some Muslim women currently can’t use the toilets in Asda in case there may be a TW in there? What about the last 30 years?

I think most categories of Jewish religion accommodate trans people to some extent and particularly if they’ve had full reassignment.

I'm in my 60s and have friends in their 70s and 80s and none of us want to share women's spaces with males. My younger female friends don't either.

I've also wondered about women and girls whose religions say they cannot be alone with males unrelated to them. There must be a great many of these women and girls and their access to public life has been taken from them.

@Artichokeleaves

And frankly a theory that that it's pointless females trying to have boundaries because male people will never respect them anyway, regardless of how it impacts on females, is the case for law protecting single sex spaces.

Exactly.

FlowerArranger · 01/05/2022 17:01
“The sad thing is that so many of my friends - women in their 50s, 60s, 70s - cannot see any problem with gender neutral toilets. Because the vast majority of men/people with penises/transwomen are 'harmless', and it would be wrong to 'discriminate'.”

I am in my 60s and I have a big problem with gender neutral toilets and all my friends feel the same .
I visited a restaurant in another town with DD and DGD and felt very uncomfortable. To reach the cubicles ( not full doors) we had to walk past urinals .
We left and used the disabled toilet .
it worries the life out of me that women and girls’ rights to safe spaces are being eroded .

I couldn't agree more

So why is a person's belief that they are the opposite sex to what they were clearly recorded as at birth, and what every cell in their body is coded to, a more important type of self-imposed restriction which must override everyone else's views and preferences?

Why is a transwoman's belief that she is female something which others must accommodate, whereas a Muslim woman's belief that she must not be alone with a man outside her family something that she has to just cope with and work around by never being out the house long enough to need to pee?

Why is one set of beliefs more important than the other?

A clue to my guess at the answer is to think about the sex of the person being inconvenienced, and then consider the length of time the patriarchy has allowed men to do what they want and forced women to accommodate male behaviour

Transwomen aren't women.

Are you saying that TW would refuse to respect female only spaces that permitted some females their only access?

Isn't that a bit transphobic? And a massive negative generalisation?

And frankly a theory that that it's pointless females trying to have boundaries because male people will never respect them anyway, regardless of how it impacts on females, is the case for law protecting single sex spaces.

I honestly don't see the problem. People often put themselves under restrictions - whether that's not eating certain things, not doing certain things or not using same sex toilets etc. Most people can do all of those things - it's just that they choose to be bound by the beliefs and to not do them.

Iran expects gay people to transition rather than be gay - because being gay is illegal. It’s supportive by default.

How would you actually police this, in a realistic sense? The assumption seems to be that all trans women look like men in dresses, but a) that’s a gross mindset and b)there have been several occasions where I have noticed someone in women’s toilets who are maybe a little more ‘masculine’ in build or face shape but I genuinely had no idea if they were trans or just a more square built female. I didn’t give it much thought cause I personally don’t care. But do you want to inspect every person to see if they have a penis? That’s madness.

@MishyJDI so you support transition (mainly m2f) as a means of erasing homosexuality. Okay.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gender-reassignment-surgery-the-sun/

I'm that age and agree with you as most people I know would

😄

How about you just focus on the fact that women don’t want to share toilets with people who aren’t women.

Why try and strengthen your argument when it’s strong enough?

Also maybe look at religions not respecting human rights?

There is no reason why a muslim woman can’t take a piss in a cubicle like the rest of the female species.

The sad thing is that so many of my friends - women in their 50s, 60s, 70s - cannot see any problem with gender neutral toilets. Because the vast majority of men/people with penises/transwomen are 'harmless', and it would be wrong to 'discriminate'.

I've not yet been called bigoted to my face, but I'm sure some of they think it. I fear I may end up losing friends over this as my explanations of the issue fall on deaf ears, and I sense that they are annoyed with me.

Nope, TW are male. That's what the T bit means.

This does not work for all females. The first job of the female facilities is to be inclusive of all females before worrying about including males too.

But thanks for proving my point above.

I'm sure you're right though. I mean Iran always strikes me as a country that goes out of its way to ensure natal women have good access and opportunities.