Single sex toilets and muslim women

And if you're trans PURELY ON THE BASIS that you SAY you're trans, then you don't have to make any concessions to looking like / acting like (whatever those mean) a woman.
Literally, a 6ft 5, 20 stone, bearded, tattooed, bald, hairy, cauliflowered eared, missing toothed, muscle bound rugby player could walk into a ladies bathroom, declare they are trans, and there is not one thing that can be said to counter it.
Because, you are trans if you SAY you are trans.

That's what we are constantly being told no? "I am what I SAY I am" has become the mantra.
So why the obsession with saying that some pass and some don't? It's irrelevant.
(BTW. none pass in real life without the filters. And when you hear the voice it's game over).
n.b. apologies if the above description fits anyone's significant other or anyone on here!

What is the practical difference between a TW who 'passes' (I don't like the term or the concept, but that is what is being mooted here) and a TW who is very obviously masculine and masculine presenting? Honestly?

Its irrelevant, since both would want the same thing: to enter a female single sex space on the grounds of identifying as a woman. How the male person looks, presents, the degree of transition, it's all irrelevant in practical terms because there is no way to say yes to one and no to another on grounds of appearance, quite apart from being exceptionally unfair! It's also not a game to play with females about 'can I sneak into your single sex space against your consent and will without you catching me', as this is deeply disrespectful to female people who are trying to share that they need single sex spaces. Not spaces where male people play with their boundaries.

The boundary is male. Anyone male. Have mixed sex, gender neutral spaces too, by all means, but some spaces need to be single sex so that all females have access to women's spaces, resources, facilities.

The assumption seems to be that all trans women look like men in dresses, but a) that’s a gross mindset
Why? Why is it a gross concept that someone male who dresses in what they believe is a feminine way look like what they are? This is what I don’t get about the modern take on trans presentation. If there’s nothing wrong with being a transwoman WHY is it a problem that I look at you and see a transwomen? It honestly don’t get it.

Sorry first line should be trans women not trans men…though I know I’ve shared a public loo space with a few trans men too…don’t blame them for not using the means mind!

biological not philosophical
I like that too

Why is it surprising? First of all, I don't happen to share those views, secondly I put the welfare of my fellow women front and centre of this issue. I believe that it is time for every woman who demands a single sex space to band together as we have seen there is power in numbers. sadly not surprising at all. I used the word “odd” but I probably should have said it makes me uncomfortable when people pick and choose their attitudes to others based on how they can use those people. I know it will make Muslims uncomfortable. Though I doubt that will bother many people. Others peoples discomfort is rarely paramount if you don’t share their views.

Happy eid to anyone who celebrates it.
A PP had a brilliant phrase that I feel should be the slogan for GC Feminism - biological not philosophical!

Well said

Eid Mubarak, itto, and anyone else who's celebrating.

Thanks Charley and Herja, and a happy Bank Holiday to you all!

Enjoy your celebrations @itto !

Well said Itto ... Eid Mubarak!

Thank you to the women who checked on me, I appreciate it. Just to wade in on the patriarchy issue, I think assuming that religions are inherently patriarchal and that they alone are responsible for patriarchy is absurd. We live in a deeply patriarchal society. The pressure on women to be attractive, slim and sexually available is patriarchal. Opening up surrogacy is patriarchal. Low wages paid to women in typically 'female' jobs is patriarchal. The lack of support for female carers is patriarchal. None of these are religious issues. This thread is not about why some Muslim or Jewish women can't share spaces with men, it is about how these policies impact them. My experiences are valid and I have as much right to oppose the generalisation of mixed sex spaces as anyone else, regardless of my motivations. I'm perfectly able to decide which spaces I feel comfortable in and I can clearly see how this impacts many women negatively. Also, since you held France as a model, France is a deeply deeply racist and Islamophobic country, which has a lot to do with its colonial history. It's a country where the extreme right just scored over 40% in a presidential election and where whole political debates can be organised around issues such as, should Muslim women be allowed to wear a headscarf in public spaces and should Muslims be allowed to name their child "Muhammad". Really not a country that I would look up to, neither as a Muslim nor as a woman. That said, I am off to celebrate Eid! 🙂

Also the absolute naivety about women's lives, particularly women from minority faiths and cultures.

Considering how often women are told 'if you just met a TW you'd understand! (And willingly throw your rights away and not want them any more and stop being difficult)' it would do the TQ+ lobby in general a lot of good to try stopping ranting at female people long enough to try meeting and listening to a diverse range of them.

Not that I would expect it to work, as this would get in the way of achieving the desired goal, which women and their voices and needs and rights are so very in the way of.

We cannot allign ourselves with our requirement for single sex spaces based on safety with those fighting for the requirement for single sex spaces based on patriarchy. so irritating. It’s like reading “well I don’t mind trans people using the toilet of their choice” as though the posters assessment and feelings are the ONLY thing of value. I want single sex spaces because they

• make me feel safe


• protect my modesty


• are safer


• allow me not to accompany my daughters to the toilet


• respect my religion


• respect my history of assault


• give me refuge


• are cleaner

@MishyJDI tw are not recognized as women by Orthodox Judaism. I don’t know about Islam outside Iran.

We are all inextricably interwoven into patriarchal conventions. Deciding which ones you don’t want to support on a non secular basis comes across as pretty xenophobic.

I will never allign myself with these patriarchal religions just because there is one thing we share in common.

How jolly noble and righteous of you.

But since, realistically, expecting women to leave their families, friends, community etc, abandon their faith and all it means to them, and ... well, presumably set up somewhere else alone while embracing the whatever it is you're advocating as so very superior and more righteous than their way of life just so male people can get in female only spaces .....?

Is a bit insane really, not to mention unrealistic?

Again. What are we going to do with these women who are taxpayers and covered by the Equality Act and have the right of access and equality? And not to have their rights subordinated to a group of male people?

I'm reminded somewhat of the attitude that saw Native American and Aboriginal kids removed from their families to be taught 'better ways' by people who knew better than them and weren't putting up with this backward nonsense of having faiths that more powerful people didn't want to respect (and which got in the way of a snatch and grab raid on the resources held by those communities.)

Funny how history repeats itself, and how these attitudes towards others really do get no more pleasant to witness.

Is a 'socket wrench' the name for the each item in my socket set? Love that box. Brilliant for IKEA furniture building. Except the items keep on falling out of their sockets.