Transgender women advised to call 999 if asked to leave women-only lavatories

Omgfg, every time I think it can’t get worse…

Actually that's not quite true. The rule of primogeniture is a hard and fast no.

The rule that the eldest son inherits a title and the estate still holds. If his older sister identifies as a man, she's shit out of luck in terms of inheriting that privilege.

Funny that.

That's right, we don't.

Because it was never considered necessary to make it law.

So if TW cannot be excluded from single sex spaces then do we not have any single sex spaces by law?

This is so true

How often is a TW ever harmed in a ladies lavatory though , I'm presuming by other women?

For clarity once is too often. I would never excuse it based on the numbers. Im interested to understand how much of a problem it is, and who the perpetrators are. The cynic in me wonders if actually a polite request to leave is, as others have said up thread, being classed as literal violence.

The cynic in me is also wondering exactly what the response to the 999 call would be seeing as how I know damn well that when I was the target of unwanted sexually suggestive comments from a "white van man" when running this week ringing 999 would be pointless.

I’m finding it confusing too.

if you call a space single sex then it should be that

precisely.

(though to be fair if I met Dylan in the ladies and he offered me a tampon ………)

Only read the OP but never heard such fucking stupid “advice”. What a waste of time for the 999 call handler.

This Mermaids charity really likes to ramp up the notion that certain people are always the imminent victims of the most awful crimes 🤔

One struggles to envisage any sort of “harm” being inflicted by a small woman distressed at finding a man in the female toilets.
However, the converse…

The word significant doesn't appear in the help sheet guidance but this does.

If you are at risk of harm, try and get somewhere safe and call someone you trust, or the emergency services if you feel comfortable in doing so on 999.

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/single-sex-spaces-know-your-rights/

Quite a lot pivots on the perception of risk of harm. Some people might consider that a challenge to their immersive fiction is a harm or risks it being one.

Actually, scrap that, Charity Commission is non-ministerial government department, so would automatically be bound by PSED.

Also, as explained here (www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/public-sector-equality-duty/who-must-comply-with-the-public-sector-equality-duty/) the charities are bound by PSED when carrying out 'published functions', but that is woolier and needs to be proved.

It is time to read up on the functions of the Charity Commission. I wonder if they are ok with their customers openly flouting, and discouraging others to do so, latest guidance from another government agency

As suspected, the charities are not defined as 'public authority'.

More interestingly , the Charity Commission isn't bound by the PSED either, seemingly: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/19

An oversight?

Inebriati, iirc, I don't think charities are classed as public authority, so are not under PSED.

I'll dig around on EHRC pages and report back.

What should the police do when they arrive? Assuming there's only been 'literal' and not 'actual' violence.
Show them the nearest Gents or gender neutral bogs, let them pee in their helmet, escort them to the ladies and/or arrest the women/girls/other men who complained?

26 Harassment
(1)A person (A) harasses another (B) if—
(a)A engages in unwanted conduct related to a relevant protected characteristic, and
(b)the conduct has the purpose or effect of—
(i)violating B's dignity, or
(ii)creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/26

I think it could breach the EA. They admit it isn't legal advice. It doesn't foster good relationships between groups with different protected characteristics. It encourages men to use single sex women's facilities, and to feel discriminated against if they are barred.

149 Public sector equality duty
(1)A public authority must, in the exercise of its functions, have due regard to the need to—
(a)eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other conduct that is prohibited by or under this Act;
(b)advance equality of opportunity between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it;
(c)foster good relations between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it.

(2)A person who is not a public authority but who exercises public functions must, in the exercise of those functions, have due regard to the matters mentioned in subsection (1).
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/149

If it's ok to tell females that being scared and uncomfortable isn't a reason to say no to using a toilet, then it's ok to tell TW that too.

Because otherwise it's just obvious male supremacism. Male people get to choose and be comfortable due to their biological difference and female people get to .... well, just make do with the crumbs of whatever male people choose to let them have, while shutting up about it.

Mermaids lost the plot years ago. The TQ+ lobby really will survive hearing the word no sometimes. Just as they expect female people to survive. They will survive some things existing that are not available to them but are there to meet the needs of others. The world and everything in it not being all about TQ+ people all the time is not a hate crime, and wasting the time of emergency response and police is... well. Let's start with deeply irresponsible and unpack from there.

• legitimate aim, not legitimate end.

I thought it looked odd, but couldn't work out why!

Does this mean that they are saying that e.g. a trans woman should be using the mens facilities and cannot be excluded from it? Or the other way around? Or neither?

Theoretically what they've said would absolutely apply to men's spaces , but they're talking about woman's spaces.

and surely a “fair reason” for excluding a trans woman from the single sex space of e.g. a women’s bathroom would be that the facility is single sex, not single gender, and that it is biological sex which is the protected characteristic.

Equality law doesn't allow discrimination on the basis of sex. But certain exceptions are allowed. So in order to keep a space female only you have to justify it using what they call 'a proportionate means to a legitimate end'.

The EHRC have had to give examples of this because that description is so woolly that TRAs have told everyone that there is no proportionate means that is fair and a 'legitimate end' doesn't exist.

The EHRC have said that all traditional woman's spaces can exclude transwomen to preserve women's dignity and privacy. And an alternative provision that isn't necessarily the mens can be provided for transwomen.

It's guidance tho. Not law. No-one imagined that an actual law would be required to keep eg rapists out of female prisons.

So TRAs are trying to claim its not fair in order to force suppliers to ignore it.

You cannot be excluded from a single sex space without a fair reason. Someone being ‘scared’ of trans people is not a good enough reason.

I am relatively new to all of this, and am a bit lost.

Does this mean that they are saying that e.g. a trans woman should be using the mens facilities and cannot be excluded from it? Or the other way around? Or neither?

and surely a “fair reason” for excluding a trans woman from the single sex space of e.g. a women’s bathroom would be that the facility is single sex, not single gender, and that it is biological sex which is the protected characteristic.

This is getting beyond ridiculous now 😂

An organisation that constantly bangs on about being 'kind' and with a website that looks like a nursery school is here threatening girls with the police if they are upset about males coming into their toilets.

Yep. And that if those girls are scared, it doesn't matter.

It's quite the unmasking.

An organisation that constantly bangs on about being 'kind' and with a website that looks like a nursery school is here threatening girls with the police if they are upset about males coming into their toilets.

What the hell is going on in the minds of those adults in public positions that they have let this self-appointed organisation of - what, exactly? - dictate so much to a generation of young people.

Mermaids appears to advise ignoring the EHRC’s advice, but then relies upon assertions about the law which are unclear and dubious.”

Mermaids, relying on unclear and dubious assertions about the law? Never!