Transgender women advised to call 999 if asked to leave women-only lavatories

The police wont even come out if your home has been robbed- good luck getting them to come out for that BS reason 😂

Access to safety must not be disrupted by irrational fear.

Oh fuck off with that disingenuous, wholly disrespectful batshit.

Females are human too. They are not a subordinate species on the planet to service trans people. Get the fuck over it before you've managed to destroy any lingering shred of patience remaining.

Of course everyone should feel safe in all spaces. But the advice they have issued is akin to someone being ejected from for example a gig they haven't paid entry for or anywhere they are not entitled to be.

What a waste of police resources.

Considering the police wouldn't come out when a male housemate in a shared house bolted the door and refused to let dd and her other housemate in the house at midnight and they also refused to come out when she was barricaded in her room and he was banging on the bedroom the door and shouting trying to get in I don't hold out much hope.

An irrational fear of males in female spaces. Yeah okay. So every woman who has when out alone ever felt endangerd by a man following them or attempting to strike up a conversation, myself included, was just being irrational. Clearly what we should have done is thought, this obviously male person could actually be a woman in the wrong body and I am just being mean by feeling threatened by their action. I should just let the situation play out for fear of causing offense.
It is sickening that after being told our whole lives to not put ourselves in dangerous situations, groups like Meremaids and telling us to shut up and accept that this is the way things are now.

Mermaids latest. Replies are limited:

twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1521429530887528450

We stand by our helpsheet on the rights of trans people in single-sex spaces, which simply confirms that if a person feels at risk of harm then they could seek support to ensure their safety.
This could include contacting the emergency services if they feel it necessary and are comfortable in doing so.
This guidance is standard for any member of society and is seemingly being criticised because it has been set out for trans people.
All people should be safe when accessing services and facilities, regardless of whether they are trans or not. Access to safety must not be disrupted by irrational fear.

I'm also unsure of why you'd call 999 when you're safe. I'm sure it's time wasting to call the emergency services to do that.

The police used to crack down on 999 time wasters:

999 'time wasters': Where do emergency services draw the line? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28562807

The bottom of the Mermaids page called "know your rights!" which sounds like it's about legal matters ie your rights, in fact says:

"Please note this help sheet does not constitute legal advice."

I think Mermaid reaches beyond children. Regardless, it is terrible advice to tell people to call 999. Actually, looking at the exact words used by Mermaid, they tell people to call 999 once they are safe. Surely 999 is there for people who need urgent help because they're currently in danger? If a transgirl went into a female toilet and a gang of aggressive women chased them out and had them surrounded, then yes, calling 999 might make sense, though it would be likely to take too long for help to arrive if the gang of women were intent on doing the transgirl harm. My worry is that 999 is under a lot of pressure already, and should be reserved for people who are in current danger, and where using 999 can actually improve their situation. I also think that Mermaids are encouraging people to use this when they neither are nor have been in physical danger.

@Dorothea3

I think that’s taking it too far, don’t at all think it’s disruption police to achieve TA aims.

Remember these are CHILDREN we are talking about with Mermaids or did I get this wrong? It is important they feel safe and know they can reach for help if somebody is abusive or threatening towards them. All the legal mumbo jumbo, record what they say etc - that is to achieve TA aims.

Well considering that ringing 999 to say there's an intruder in your house, or you're on the ground with a broken hip, or a loved one is having a stroke does not guarantee blues and twos arriving 30 seconds later - possibly 2 plus hours later, although an elderly man beaten up in my area by a mugger and left on the ground bleeding still hasn't yet seen a police officer some days later - I don't think 'a female person just said no, this is a single sex space' is going to get much of a response. And it will be the word of one person against another, and considering how few evidenced full blown rapes end in any kind of justice this is no likely to

But then female people have said this for years. When they said 'we feel unsafe with any male able to walk into this space' they were told:

• Until you've actually been harmed, you have nothing to moan about
• After you've been harmed you can always call the police and use the justice system. Good luck with that!

So unless the police provide an entirely different level of service to TQ+ people this is going to be a bit of a non starter. And that's before the bottom line that female people are allowed to have boundaries, and not predicate their 'no' on whether or not a male person agrees, and the EHRC has confirmed: some spaces may be single sex.

It would only be in very one-off circumstances that it would make sense to call 999 if feeling "threatened". If someone in a women's toilet asks you to leave, and you feel threatened (by which I mean at real physical risk - unlikely in this case, as a woman will nearly certainly be weaker than the transwoman), then you would leave rather than call 999, surely? If you still felt "threatened" you would leave the area, go into a shop, etc etc. Women often feel threatened by (much stronger) men in this way, but how often do they call 999? For a start, it would take a police car some time to arrive.
Isn't this an attempt to disrupt the normal running of the police - so I suppose you could call it a form of civil protest/disruption to achieve TA aims?

Thanks for info that’s helpful and makes sense

I don’t feel this is correct from Mermaids if the space is single sex due to this decision

‘This is guidance, rather than law and is not enforceable by outside parties. You can continue to use the spaces you always have done without issue’

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/our-analysis-on-the-ehrcs-single-sex-spaces-guidance/

There may be designated by law single sex spaces where this doesn’t apply (if I’ve interpreted it all correctly)

Very short post - DS and I use the disabled now.

I’m skeptical of mermaids, my DS once wanted to be a girl called Chloe. Equally sometimes he wants to be a seahorse or a dragon. He is a child.

The advice about calling the emergency services if threatened is fair enough. The rest is very legal heavy, they’re expecting children to act as activists to push through an agenda they probably don’t even understand the ramifications of.

The law hasn't changed. Services could always exclude men including transwomen. So this thread is still relevant. The only difference is that the EHRC has reiterated their guidance and given more examples.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3175666-Want-to-know-why-women-are-livid-trans-thread?reply=115172646

Thank you Dorothea3!

From @Datun 's post above

"You do have the right to single sex places, but only if the provider wants to give them to you, if you see what I mean."

Yes. What cannot happen though is for a service provider to deceive users by, for example, saying a provision is single sex for females only while providing that same service to men who pretend they are not men. The service provider must make it clear that provision is on a mixed sex basis. Otherwise there is the potential for legal challenge via the conflation of two separate protected characteristics in the Equality Act: sex and gender reassignment.

In the Scottish Inner Court, earlier this year, it was established as a UK precedent in law that the PC of 'sex' in the Equality Act is a reference to human biology. A woman is female and provisions for females only must necessarily exclude males including all males who claim the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment'.

Why can't these organisations realise that biologically born women have rights too? It's all about the rights of trans people now and it's so unfair. My blood pressure is rising just thinking about this.

Now there is a pushback and they are getting very concerned that the gravy train of 'training' are about to end

And a growing concern about empowered females who will start daring to say no. And refusing to co operate with enforced mixed sex provision.

Is it this one?
Want to know why women are livid? (trans thread) | Mumsnet

Yes, sorry, you can legally exclude males (however they identify and whether or not they have a GRC). But it's discretionary, and up to the service provider concerned.

You do have the right to single sex places, but only if the provider wants to give them to you, if you see what I mean.

You can absolutely have them, legally, and enforceable. But if the provider doesn't want to get them to you, then no.

For instance, Marks & Spencer's could say they supply changing rooms segregated by sex and it would be perfectly legal and enforceable. But they could also say they don't.

Largely because no one thought they had to actually clarify it in law, because public opinion would do that.

At this point, I want to add a link to a thread I started way back when about the EHRC guidance, and what it all means.

But I can't work the new search function.

if anyone can help me search for my name, starting a thread, that would be great!

It really should.

The EHRC have published the guidance very recently, there is currently a what is, in effect, a test case being crowdfunded for, you will find the details in 'Update on the Rape Crisis' thread.

The guidance is non-statutory , and may be interpreted as contradicting to the Statutory Codes, which EHRC is currently re-writing.

The Equality Act ALLOWS provision of single-sex services in the exceptions to the general presumption of mixed sex provision.

Stonewall has campaigned since 2015 to remove these exceptions, thankfully unsuccessfully.

Meanwhile they, and Mermaids, and all the other trans charities went ahead with incorrect guidance, managing to persuade many, many organisations into 'getting ahead of the law'.

Now there is a pushback and they are getting very concerned that the gravy train of 'training' are about to end

But surely the service provider would have to state at the entrance that the toilets for example are not single sex?

I’m surprised we do not have the right, I’ve been reading on this board for a while - I appreciate those who’ve said more on it and before I started reading up on it - and I wasn’t aware this was the case

I googled

According to the EHRC: “[The guidance] advises organisations such as hospitals, retailers, hospitality and sports clubs to put in place policies that are both legal and balance the needs of different groups. The guidance confirms that service providers wishing to limit services to a single sex are legally able to do so, provided the reasons are justified and proportionate.”

and the term guidance seems at odds with legally able

Mermaids is taking the guidance angle but if legally able exists then it is possible? If proportionate etc

www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/500-000-grant-to-gender-dysphoria-charity-to-go-ahead-says-lottery-body.html

Purely a way to frighten vulnerable women into keeping quiet when someone questionable comes into the toilets, knowing they can threaten them with calling the police.

This is all so fucked up. When will normality return?