Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

Do I need to link you to the many, many cases where parents have let their children down?

We have a multi agency society for a reason.

Narcissistic? I think you need to look it up.

I don't think I personally have a better understanding than parents in their own stories on here, no, before the pile on.

But I have been in situations where the school is aware of something the parent isn't. If you think that doesn't happen, you are deluded.

(and equally, parents know things we don't). Hence why communication is important!

Take it away from this topic for a moment.
There was a story a few years ago about a teenager having an abortion behind her parents' back. She didnt tell her parents, she told her teacher and her GP, and neither could tell the parents.

For what its worth, I don't agree with that at all.

But through your dislike of my views, if you want to pretend that there is no children in the history of ever who has a better relationship with a member of staff than their parents, for whatever reason, you are dreaming.

Equally, school staff can sometimes have a better understanding than their parents

In reading many MN posts over the years, this is the one that takes my breathe away in its narcissistic belief. I am so tired of insecure and self referential teachers who believe they have a better understanding than a parent does.

No.

I dont have to answer anyone questions who asks me how many sexual assaults I will allow.

Ironically, you implied I would be fine with those things taking place

I only ever said LM didnt have a great time at school because she was called her dead name, not allowed to change her uniform (I see you snipped those bits out) and not able to use the toilet.

I never said that wasnt Ok, I said it wouldnt have been a barrel of laughs because it wouldnt!because I have empathy.

Your faux naivety on pretending you thought I meant she should have been allowed anywhere despite several posts where I confirmed otherwise is not fooling me. Nor is your attempt at implying I allow sexual assaults to happen (there is no way you meant anything else, because its such a stupid fucking question to ask).

If you're going to make bold claims about me, at least own it.

@TeamSukhareva will you be apologising for calling me a man?

No. Not quite. I do genuinely have my views

But you're the first poster to acknowledge that it's a difficult position for us rather than the many who have decided I'm a danger to children

If I took my teens teacher’s view and awareness of their situation and their ‘actions’, it would be remarkably different to the reality.

I once attended a school where the teachers lived nearby and we knew them personally. That's extraordinary rare though, as many headteachers advise staff to live out of catchment.

That's to Stopwaiting, fwiw

Why do you appreciate my post?

Because I've correctly identified the conundrum you find yourself in?

*I'm not a he.

Re my username, it's a quote from a film.*

Oh... Didn't you say you were a middle-aged man about twenty pages ago, or did I misread/ misattribute? And isn't the film about a boy who does a drag act? Sorry for confusion. Suddenly reminded of ancient coding bulletin boards and suddenly realising we had literally zero clue whether any user was male or female.

In this case you cant though can you? Because you admitted yourself its too difficult for kids to understand. Adults don't even understand it.

You seem to agree iirc with affirming identities though but can't give a definitive answer as to what these identities in these children are that you are affirming. It also seems to he a thing now where identities change. Going from NB to being a transman for instance.

So syrley if you affirmed the NB identity you and the child were wrong befire so what makes you think its the right one now?

Perhaps schools just shouldn't get involved at all given they don't know the kids don't know and kids act differently at school than home and it's getting in the way of safguarding

Or on Mumsnet. Work requires business like performance as most workplaces do and this may mean not being completely honest at times.

I am not pretending anything on this thread.

Equally, school staff can sometimes have a better understanding than their parents. I'm sure we aren't going to pretend otherwise.

TeamSukhareva

point taken.

So, maybe I should reframe it to be:

I am surprised someone with any depth of experience relating to children or teens doesn’t understand this.

Or discounts the views of people, in this case parents, who DO have that depth.

If I took my teens teacher’s view and awareness of their situation and their ‘actions’, it would be remarkably different to the reality. My teen showed me a reference given to them by a teacher who has spent a lot of time in different school scenarios with them over past 6 years, and my teen laughed at the ‘very social’ description labelled to them. My teen is so good with their ‘school persona’ when they are actually the opposite but very good at masking when they have to.

Appreciate your post.

I'm not a he.

Re my username, it's a quote from a film.

Do you fancy a fourth essay responding to the Same sentence or is three enough?
Not that I read any

I am surprised someone with any depth of teaching experience doesn’t understand this.
In fairness, Stop has said he is not a teacher and only works with pupils who require specific input. Ie he doesn't have depth of teaching experience, nor breadth.
Having seen the words "be yourself" scattered around in frivolous contexts, I doubt that the general public has thought deeply about what the words mean. Certainly there is no shared understanding.

Agreed 100% @Helleofabore. Isn't that something that is taught on a pgce? If not, it absolutely should be!

My own teen reacts very differently to out of school situations than in school situations because they have told me themselves and their teacher’s comments. Even those people at school who spend a great deal of time with my child because of different projects, student parliament etc have a view of my teen that is a ‘school’ persona

I've had some quite lengthy conversations with my teen about all this too. If I'm honest she doesn't really believe in it but she doesn't want to upset friends etc so she plays along at school but is very heavily relying on the adults to set the bounderies. For them to make sure it's safe to use a pronoun or name to whatever because the teachers are going to stop it before it gets to a point where they either have to follow through and lose their space/privacy or make a stand and be rejected by those who feel differently.

The huge problem we have is obviously many adults aren't providing this boundary when they should and are watching these kids back themselves into a corner where it will not end well for them.

The fact that adults aren't prepared to speak up yet assume silence is compliance with children and don't see a problem is disturbing.

As much as much of it is beyond my dds understanding mainly because she like the pp sees kids amd is struggling to link those kids at school to the problem they are being used to distract from the dark side of the ideology, she wants me and others to continue speaking up for womens rights . Clearly because that boundary is so desperately needed because without it they know just how much trouble they can be in.

Yes rogdmum. My own teen is a great example of this. And I am surprised someone with any depth of teaching experience doesn’t understand this.

My own teen reacts very differently to out of school situations than in school situations because they have told me themselves and their teacher’s comments. Even those people at school who spend a great deal of time with my child because of different projects, student parliament etc have a view of my teen that is a ‘school’ persona.

It is like those people who think everyone ‘takes their whole self to work’. No, Some people don’t.

I think it would be helpful if schools recognised that they only see a snapshot of a child in a particular environment, and they are unlikely to understand the full situation of that child in what is a rapidly developing general issue. I think a responsible approach would be one of caution, particularly on the back of Cass. Obviously the lobby groups (and in particular, LGBTYS) disagree.

<and as an aside, I can’t believe this thread is still ongoing!>

I've read this whole thread and have learned a lot, and it does seem that one poster is straddling a fence that appears to me to be incredibly uncomfortable. Stopwaitinf, you state quite clearly that you do not support males in female spaces etc, but then seem to contradict yourself, but this seems to be based on what you are forced to do because of your workplace rules. It seems to me that Stopwaiting's situation at work demonstrates really rather beautifully current culture - feelings are more important than facts to the organisation involved, and those trying to help their students are turning their worlds upside down and inside out to try to reconcile a clearly bad set of rules and dreadful consequences, against their own sense of self as a good, caring person. That must be very painful. I may have understood the situation incorrectly, apologies if so.

P.S. these were the questions I asked. I asked them because Stopwaiting referred to LM not having been allowed to use the girls' toilets at school, and said it wasn't a "barrel of laughs" for LM. To me, the clear inference there is that LM ^should have been allowed.

So I ask, if it was up to you to give permission to a male transitioner to use female-only spaces at a school, and you gave permission, how many sexual assaults would they have to be accused of before you questioned your initial judgement?

How many assaults before you felt you'd failed the female pupils?

All Stopwaiting has to say is, "the first assault would be enough".

Unlike certain people, I do not delude myself that I can read people's minds. I do this thing called "asking". People have been doing it for thousands of years. The alternative to asking is that I just assume the worst from other people's posts and don't give any of you the opportunity to correct miscommunications, but I think that's uncivilised.

Instead of making grand, but ultimately content-free statements about being libelled, try answering the questions. For example, the following answer would work well:

"If it were up to me, I would keep the girls' toilets and changing rooms at my school female only. If I ever gave permission to a male pupil to use the girls' spaces (making them mixed-sex), I would feel sick with guilt the very first time I heard that pupil accused of sexual assault."

Is that an answer you would sign?