Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

Still, on the bright side… 70 posts left. Hopefully though, OP worked out a good way to explain the issue and might come back and tell us.

I STILL don't understand what the heck you're talking about.

I have ceased to try to work it out by asking questions. Questions that never got answered. As I said earlier, I think this poster ceased to engage many pages ago.

Forced, not for Ed!!!

So, Stopwaiting, you absolutely stand by your contradictions and convictions? Correct? It just seems a very muddled position to be in. I would truly feel for you if you thought one thing but were for Ed to represent the other at your workplace, that would be difficult and energy sapping. Bit like us females being forced to call a male "Miss" and fit "her" for a bra. But my understanding is that you're not in that position. You know the truth, you're just putting that aside to focus on feelings because, why? Because it's easier for you? You call the kid by their chosen names and pronouns because questioning them is not your job, but you DO actually believe them, despite not believing them. I'm confused. You don't owe me an explanation of course, but you've said an awful lot over the past 30+ pages, and I've read it all, and I STILL don't understand what the heck you're talking about. It's gobbledegook.

Yes @Helleofabore - that's the one we're discussing.

I'd love to hear your explanation of doctors creating another medical disaster or teachers abusing positions, but would you like to pretend children don't die under the care of parents?

The first doesn't exclude the latter.
As for the examples of doctors and teachers causing harm, I would suggest Google.
I'll start you off
Lobotomy............

Sorry omitted quote

The first doesn't exclude the latter.
As for the examples of doctors and teachers causing harm, I would suggest Google.
I'll start you off
Lobotomy............

I spent my school years being unable to wear trousers. In both primary and secondary school

a few years ago the local comprehensive where my dad lived had girls that wanted to wear trousers but weren’t allowed

the school thought they’d be clever about it and told the girls that was fine….as long as they wore boys trousers

my dad thought that was funny…he either doesn’t now or has learnt not to say its funny in front of me 😀

i think the girls kept going and were finally able to wear trousers from the girls/women’s section

(my dad’s lovely by the way, always very prepared to listen to an alternative view. Just sometimes has a wee bit of a blind spot)

I'm also curious as to whether stop would still feel LM.had it super hard , Worse than the girls who lost their privacy, if the second side if the story turned out to be true.

The secind side being that LM.was not sent home for wearing the " girls uniform " they were sent home for wearing clothing that would have been inappropriate for any of the students male or female and was not part of the uniform/ dress code policy. And that actually the school tried hard to placate LM but they were having none of it.

Are we discussing Madigan? The transitioned male who was the in the ‘women’s officer’ role? Or am I thinking of someone else?

At what point does it become ok for a male to be appointed into a role meant and created for females to address the sexist discrimination females have and continue to experience and to ensure policy decisions fully consider the needs of all females? All females. Not males.

I find this particularly concerning for university and political party women’s officer roles.

Not to mention the fact that many schools also have skirts which cist a fortune. Dds school skirts are 18.50. Boys can buy their trousers fom.tesco.

Its automatically more expensive for girls to attend school especially if the limited number if trousers permitted don't fit which is a problem we have encountered many a time.

I spent my school years being unable to wear trousers. In both primary and secondary school

There are still schools out there that don't have trousers on the girls list of uniform. In 2022. Lm achieved in a short time what parents and girls have yet to achieve In some schools.

Their social media profile read " Saville apprentice" and rape.com Iirc.

They blamed their brother for it.

Thanks @Whatwould - that's what I recall. Lots of acts of male entitlement from a very confident young person. I didn't know about the throwing a brother under the bus? What was that about?

Lm got handed what they wanted. And praised and placed on a pedestal. Took opportunities meant for women and has been openly racist and offensive on social media and gotten away with it.

The ones who really had it hard were pupils with the other protected characteristics of religion,disability, sex ( females) who lost their safety privacy akd dignity when the school chose the feelings of a male over the.legal rights and safety of the girls.

No i do not worry about a male person who got so much free stuff and opportunities as a reward fir being an entitled male. They threw their brother under a bus to save face.

LM was just fine.

The girls at the school on the other hand. Treated merely like props and human shields fir a male .

Oh and National Autistic Society have been shamefully silent on this, as have CAMHS.

Re: LM, not got time now to research this person again, but I recall them being very upfront and outspoken about suing their school. They didn't seem particularly vulnerable to me. It has been years since I read about it though, so I might be remembering wrongly.

"although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism."

No it doesn't! It's discussed all the time. There has found to be a much higher (than would be in the general population) number of autistic girls referred to GIDS. This is reflected in the discussion on MN and Twitter. It reflects the profile of the young people who identify as trans, which to me means they are being discriminated against on the grounds of disability by my workplace actively promoting trans as a choice., They are being allowed to make harmful choices for themselves, and not protected. I keep pointing this out.

There is, of course, the guidelines where posts making negative generalisations about any group are removed.

To clarify. These posts would be only removed if they are reported or come to the attention of the moderators some other way.

Many posts are not reported by regular posters but left to highlight discussion points.

although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism).

I didn’t think there was anything in the posting guidelines about posts discussing potential connections between people with autism and ‘trans’.

That seems to be a wrong interpretation.

It is discussed and referred to many threads.

There is, of course, the guidelines where posts making negative generalisations about any group are removed. This includes making negative generalisations about regular posters on MN feminism boards, whether based on a posters own prejudices or another reason.

However, the under researched ‘connection’ between having a transgender identity and autism is certainly allowed to be discussed and referenced.

I chose to "take you on" because you were deliberately obstructive in answering questions,

although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism).

It's the result of historic underdiagnosis of autistic women, meaning a lack of official records on typical experiences of puberty for autistic teenage girls, coupled with institutional undervaluing of autistic women over 30 and their insights into what puberty is like for autistic teenagers. This knowledge gap means that typical struggles of autistic teens (which are being exacerbated by modern culture) are being solely interpreted through the present-day lens of gender identity theory. In previous generations, autism also used to get misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, particularly in teenagers experiencing what is now nicknamed 'autistic burnout'.

Fortunately for me, I was born after the phase where autism was misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, but before Gen Z, so I never ended up on unnecessary anti-psychotics or on the path to elective mastectomy (30% chance of chronic pain after one) or an elective hysterectomy (throwing you into premature menopause with all the risks that carries).

Various people have co-opted disability rights language in order to claim that it is ableist to express concerns about disabled girls, with a condition that is heritable, having treatment that will destroy their fertility. It's quite clever of them, as well as being a complete and utter flaming liberty. They like to claim this in between claiming we don't want people to exist if they experience distress over their gender. Ironically, they really, really, really don't take it well when gender-critical autistic people point out that the optics suggest they don't want autistic people to exist... Personally, I like my offspring; I'm glad I got the chance to make peace with my body and move forward into adulthood, without anyone offering child me irreversible medical treatment to interfere with puberty, or permanently impair my fertility. I can tell you that I am not alone in that.

By the way, spent the day with some non-binary young adults. At no point did I want any of them to stop existing. I never do. I do have various concerns for them and their longterm health, which I will not go into here.

Ah OK.

It's a tit for tat, is it? A strange game of "he started it".

I'd love to hear your explanation of doctors creating another medical disaster or teachers abusing positions, but would you like to pretend children don't die under the care of parents?

Where to start.

Thanks for the misogynistic view that I have "emotional rants".
I didnt call your post fucking stupid, i called the question of how many sexual assaults I would allow "fucking stupid", given your post regarding my professional status, I took that personally, imagine
It;s a bold claim to ask me about sexual assaults and try and preend i would allow it.
I didnt say it was too long to read, I just read the patronising tone and patched it.
"an unknown number of lurkers" ie you, and you alone. as I'm saying now for about the 6th time, a PP tried to imply that LM has "special treatment " as a trans woman. What i pointed out was that she will have had a shit time at school, so that doesn't really cancel it out. On these threads, posters tell us about bad times they had at school and the sympathy is out. Why not for Lily? Can you really not understand that those experiences will have been hard for her? i see youve again chosen to ignore the dead name issue and focus back to the toilets, wihich is a silly move, because as I've said several times now , I DON'T AGREE WITH MIXED TOILETS.
Thanks for the "if" you work in education, an implication that you dont think I do.

The irony is I work very closely with neurodivergence (although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism).

The silly thing is we agree on the toilet issue, you've just chosen to take me on because you think its two camps. It isn't.

I am going to be snippy again, on the ground you keep posting emotional rants. Seeing you think my posts are fucking stupid or whatever, I don't much care about being snippy.

You are careering wildly between admitting that I asked you questions and saying I make "bold claims". Note that. And no, asking you questions is not implying anything. If I wanted to imply something, I would do a better job of it than that.

You do not have to answer questions, but it is absolutely bizarre to type so much while engaged in not answering them. Especially as on other pages of this thread you make a performance of claiming other people's posts are too long to read.

Perhaps when you ask questions, you do it in order to imply. I'm noting down this for future reference, in case other people also do, and I've just never noticed. Nevertheless, it is not a universal human trait, and some of us ask questions because we want to know the answer.

You're overusing the word "imply" entirely, to be honest. What people are doing in this thread is inferring your views from your posts, and some of them are principled enough to ask for clarification before categorising you on the basis of one post on MN.

It currently seems as if you'd rather I (and an unknown number of lurkers who might also have found the reference to LM jarring) had decided to condemn you without telling you, and without ever giving you a chance to clarify.

On a tangent, if you are actually engaged in the education sector, I suggest you tamp down this tendency to engage in projection, because there is the clear and ever present possibility you may encounter children in your career who are neurodivergent. Worst of all, you may meet children who are neurodivergent and whose parents will be on their side in the face of accusations from school staff. Something to think about, hmm?

Oh, and there is a great deal of difference between being a pupil at school who is not allowed to use the toilet, and being a pupil at school who is not allowed to use the toilets of the opposite sex. The first's human rights are being breached. The second has access to toilets, as is their human right, and simply doesn't have more choices of toilet than other pupils of their sex.

I don't think male pupils should be allowed to use toilets intended for the sole use of the opposite sex. They should use those for their sex, or the school should install additional single occupancy unisex toilets.

Do I need to link you to the many, many cases where parents have let their children down?

Only if I can list all the times teachers ' abused their positions and doctors created yet another medical disaster.