Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

Do you accept then, that we shouldn't be telling children that they can change sex? And if its not autism, mental illness or misogyny, and they're not actually changing sex, what in your view is driving the epidemic of young people saying they are trans? What even IS trans in that case?

I've used the word offensive twice. Both in relation to references to autism. I work in and around autism, so I'm maybe over sensitive in that regard.

Just because something has basis in fact doesn't mean that it can't cause hurt or offence.

You can have a debate about this without referring to autism. Indeed, a poster up thread was the one who raised the problem with this, yet you seem to have chosen to ignore their post.

Why is it dreadful if it’s factual? And what’s so offensive about saying so anyway? Come to think of it, what’s offensive about all the other posts you’ve deemed offensive? You seem to be the one calling names here, not anyone else. Seems like you’re calling for a respectful debate, but not according others much respect. I personally disagree regularly with many other posters’ different views, but they are legitimate viewpoints and I manage not to go around calling them offensive.

I couldn't be called offensive, because I'm not.

I enjoy all your posts @nightwakingmoon .

It is Wandas post on autism, an attempt to claim autism is the root cause of all transgender and worse stil, claiming the school spends more time on Transgender than it does autism awareness. That is a dreadful thing to say.

No I don't believe children can change into the opposite sex. But I don't believe they are motivated purely by autism, mental illness or the MN favourite, misogyny.

*uncontroversial! Still struggling to post on this glitchy new platform!

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou - you keep complaining that you’re not being shown “the same respect” on this thread, but you’re the one repeatedly calling others’ posts “offensive” - and no-one is doing that to you? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me to complain that people aren’t being respectful to others’ views, then go about calling other posters offensive or “truly offensive”.

Can you pinpoint exactly what you thought was offensive or ignorant about @Whatsnewpussyhat ’s post, for example? It’s factual and I struggle to see the “offence”. Sounds all pretty controversial to me. Religion is a belief system. Gender ideology / belief in gender identity as an innate soul is also, clearly, a belief system - there is zero scientific evidence for the gendered soul just as there isn’t either for the religious soul. What’s so offensive about saying so? It’s only offensive if you believe in the belief system, surely, which is the entire point?

Or are you disagreeing with the idea that it’s absurd to tell children they can change into the other sex? Well, what’s ignorant or offensive about that? It’s simply fact. They can’t. Do you believe they can?

Wanda, this is truly offensive.

Staggeringly obvious you've never set foot in a classroom.

Genuinely (I know we disagree) an interesting read.

Some really thoughtful responses on this thread about how to support our children in navigating all this. There are massive problems for the individual children concerned and Transgender Trend has some very informed pieces from psychologists trying to support teenagers, like this one:

www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

@TeamSukhareva @WandaWomblesaurus

I don't agree with the superpower thing, but I strongly disagree with people throwing self harm , suicide and autism into eberu argument.

This child is 12.

Posters want to show how wonderfully right they are about trans and the child and OP are copping for it.

You're correct.

Thanks for that. I appreciate someone actually reading what I'm saying and not making things up!

But that's what the trans charity are doing. Holding unconsenting members of the public responsible for the mental health of others.

You have yet to explained why a verbal declaration of an unverifiable, undefined , state of being should override everything to the point safguarding can be disregarded. And why anyone ekse has to be involved?

No one else is responsible fir validating anyones identity. Identity is irrelevant to normal.social.rules and single sex spaces.

If no one can define the terms beyond circular definitions and compelled speech then kids should be left out of all if it tbh.

If adult posters on the Internet can't accept opinions other than their own, I'm not sure how you think kids would fare.

Your suggestion only works because you seem to think the majority of kids would be anti trans (your false narrative of kids threatening suicide rtc).

Stories and statistics of trans kids are quite different to the real world.

Incidentally, I'm on another similar thread and I have taken on board everyone else's but been called wrong, misinformed and been spokem about rudely because i think trans is a grey issue it's not us doing the shutting down (and I certainly don't agree with anyone calling anyone a terf). There is a thread running now where a woman asked if she was a bigot because of a view which I strongly disagree with. My post was to say i disagree with her views but I'm very sorry she's been called a bigot. I have not been shown the same respect.

I don't know where to start. Your post ranges from ignorant to downright offensive, @Whatsnewpussyhat

I'm not a new poster @WandaWomblesaurus

I de registered during covid.

I didn't ask anyone to stop talking about it. Enough with the boring narrative that anyone who is not in perfectly the dame view just wants to shut women up.

You can discuss what you like. I'm allowed to disagree. You don't own the forum..

Incidentally I'm regularly told I'm wrong! I don't take offence though, cause I'm not that egotistical!

Everyone, everyone, is entitled to an opinion. You guys riding rough shod isn't a discussion.

I think coming to the conclusion themselves may well have been possible when we were kids. Debate was encouraged. My favourite lessons in high school were those where we sat in a big circle and discussed often quite adult topics. Abortion, euthanasia, birth control etc. We all managed to do so even with opposing views. Because we actually had to have an explanation /thought process behind those opposing views. It actually helped alot because even if we disagreed we could understand why they felt that way beyond " it's unkind" " I feel unsafe" " ill hurt myself if you don't let me do X" .

Its no coincidence that along side this introduction , any questions, discussions etc are shut down. There are no coherent explanations or non circular definitions of terms. People are merely called transphobes/terfs and told to shut up.

There is no way for teens to explore both sides of the arguments or ask fir the facts to make their minds up.

There is literally no choice for young people now to either go along with it to keep the peace or stay quiet and watch their friends damage their bodies and be encouraged to live in their delusions.

Yes you're absolutely right of course. What I've found works well with teens though is letting them come to that realisation themselves. Tread lightly.

Affirmation can have disastrous consequences

As a parent/teacher/Dr you are not there to be their best friend . To be liked every second of every day. Therr are days when your child hates you. Wishes they had anyone but you as a parent. But your jib remains the same. To he honest akd protect them from all the things they are not old enough, mature enough or clued up enough to be able to protect themselves from. Even if that means they hate you. Because one day they will grow up have families of their own and be thankful you did not Rob them of the chance to do that befire they had any real sense if what it is they were giving up by following this path

That seems like a good answer to the OP

Its not even just about being disappointed. Its coming to the realisation that everyone they know loved and trusted has lied to them. Who benefits from children becoming isolated and mis trusting of the adults with a duty of care around them? Where does that leave the child?

The way I have explained it is that some people would like to be the opposite sex. But humans can't change sex. Some people believe that encouraging children to think that they can change sex is kind but I don't think it is kind. Because those children are going to be very disappointed when they're older.

That seems like a good answer to the OP.

The way I have explained it is that some people would like to be the opposite sex. But humans can't change sex. Some people believe that encouraging children to think that they can change sex is kind but I don't think it is kind. Because those children are going to be very disappointed when they're older.

It's fine for children to wear what they want and do their hair however but we can't change sex. So if a boy in your class (like W who you now call G) wants to wear the girls' school uniform, that's fine. It's not fine for him to use the girls' changing rooms or girls' toilets though because it wouldn't be fair on the girls.

Incidentally, my autistic child has been told he is transphobic by some of his more woke classmates as he has occasionally forgotten that W is now called G and has occasionally forgotten to use female pronouns. He is also very irritated by the fact that G not only doesn't wear boys uniform, he doesn't wear any uniform. He is allowed to wear what he wants, including a beenie hat. My child thinks this is monstrously unfair. And I have to say I agree and I don't believe is doing G any favours at all.

Ps I think autism can sometimes be a superpower. That ability to cut through bullshit, to question the way some people twist the meaning of words, is breathtaking. I have learned so much. But at the same time, it can be so hard and so exhausting navigating a neurotypical world. And I worry for him.

What are you going to say when they learn more about human biology and become aware that people cannot change sex and she cannot be a boy?

Yes the truth has to cone out sometime. If my dd said she could fly its all very well playing along that she can. Fine while all she's doing is jumping off the sofa. I might want to tell her the truth before she starts jumping out her bedroom window though.

Same with this. Might seem harmless with a name. But how far do you let it go? Being allowed to change with the boys at school? Risking deformities from binders ? Mastectomies? Peeing into a bag for months because the phalloplasty didbt go quite according to plan.

If parents, teachers, drs all fail to be honest then who will?

How much damage is acceptable in the name of " being kind" ?

Living as a boy/girl is nothing more than adopting harmful outdated stereotypes coupled with irreversible damage from hormones binders and surgeries ro achieve the impossible.

There's points to be earnt, certificates to display , money to be made etc but it's all lies.

If you love and care for someone you tell them.the truth. Even if that truth hurts. Because if you don't someone.else will amd quite possibly not in the nicest, most appropriate, or safe way.

This is a false equivalence.

You don't believe in god so you can say some people do believe in god.

Some people think 'gender' is a special innate feeling like a soul. I personally think that's like believing there is a god.

Some people are Christians because that is their BELIEF system.
Some people are genderists because gender identity ideology is their BELIEF system.

There is zero proof of either God or innate gender so no one else needs to go along with it.

Telling children that any experience of discomfort with their sexed bodies, or mental illness means they are 'transgender' is nonsense.

Telling children that they can change or choose their sex is absurd.

Telling girls that being a girl is determined by feelings, appearance or preferences is pure misogyny.

This current social contagion amongst teenage girls with poor mental health is simply the new, socially acceptable and, even worse, actively encouraged, self harm.

Sorry @Bearinatree - that sent before I was finished - I was wanting to say I agree - there's no shame in being Autistic - and it's just a normal thing in life to have a percentage of people who have it.

As an aside - the schools according to my kids never focus on autism awareness which many of the kids have and instead devote a disproportionate time to TQ awareness and promotion.