Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

I've used the word offensive twice. Both in relation to references to autism. I work in and around autism, so I'm maybe over sensitive in that regard

You said my post was offensive and I didn't even mention autism.

No I don't believe children can change into the opposite sex. But I don't believe they are motivated purely by autism, mental illness or the MN favourite, misogyny

Why are other pupils and teachers being forced to pretend they have somehow changed sex then?

There are many different and sometimes multiple motivations for children to say they are trans. These should all be thoroughly investigated. Having a diagnosis of dysphoria doesn't mean a child is trans, it means the child has dysphoria. Most of them grow out of it. 'Trans' isn't innate. Lying to children is wrong.

If a child takes comfort in adopting the sex role stereotypes of the opposite sex that is on them. Many girls do it, I did, as a way to hide themselves like a form of protection or self preservation. Pretending this has any relevance to their sexed body though is just harmful ideology.

And yes, reducing 'woman' to a specific set of sex role stereotypes, feelings or traits is misogynistic, young girls who don't 'fit' think they can't be one because they don't conform.

Schools should be teaching these girls that a woman is a female body with any personality, not a 'woman' personality in any sex body.

Do you think these children you are around are being damaged by the push of gender identity ideology? Do you think 10 years ago any of them would've been 'Trans'? Or do you think they are simply, and far more likely, looking for an outlet for whatever they are going through? Be that trauma, sexual abuse, bullying, being gay in a lesbophobia society, etc etc etc and yes, autism seems to be a large factor in children who say they trans.

No one has said 'autism causes trans', but it's clear that for many their autism and how they see the world and themselves, and what they are being told about gender ideology, can lead them to the thinking that 'trans' is the reason they don't conform.

If the disproportionate and ridiculous amount of money given to the likes of Stonewall to push this niche ideology onto children, was instead given to youth mental health support it would be money far better spent.

Lying and pretending to these children and the false promises that changing 'gender' will make the difficult mental stuff disappear is like sticking a plaster on a gaping wound.
All it does is mask the underlying reasons that aren't being dealt with.

The children are being used to push this idea that gender is innate for the benefit of adult males. These children are being used to push for the removal of female sex based rights and protections. They are collateral damage.

Lesbians and gays are same gender attracted

Same SEX attracted. Claiming homosexuality has any other meaning is homophobic.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I completely understand that on an individual basis. I'm bisexual and am attracted to people based on their individual personality, mannerisms and values etc.

But you said people can be 'same gender attracted' and that they are attracted to the 'thoughts and feelings' of a specific gender.

Which is an entirely different thing to saying people can be attracted to an individual's thoughts and feelings (or what they share of them as obviously we can't experience other people's internal thoughts and feelings).

But why are you focusing on women?

I can see why you asked this - I could have asked the same question about thoughts and feelings specific to men and to women so will do so here:

If people are same gender attracted and as you say earlier for you that means attracted to the specific thoughts and feelings of a particular gender, what are some examples of thoughts and feelings specific to women?

If people are same gender attracted and as you say earlier for you that means attracted to the specific thoughts and feelings of a particular gender, what are some examples of thoughts and feelings specific to men?

Again I can't stress enough how I'm asking these questions genuinely as nobody has ever answered them when I've asked.

That is exactly what Pansexual is - but it allows for an acceptance that gender is a thing (which MN doesnt generally accept).

Thanks LK.

I'm sure I am. I don't care if they're established or respected. The poster in question read a full paragraph from me, quoted one sentence and reposted it in an effort to degrade me. I defended myself. that's not "laying in".

Perhaps pan sexual people are 'gender attracted'? As a bisexual person I am attracted to both sexes, but differently to both!

Femininity (or being in touch with your feminine side, whatever you call it) is important to me in both males and females, but that certainly doesn't make me a lesbian.

These are nuanced issues, or 'grey', as you call them, and you seem a little confrontational at times. I think I can see where you're coming from, but laying into established/respected posters is not necessarily a way forward.

But why are you focusing on women?

My point is you can be attracted to a person, thoughts, feelings, not sexual anatomy.

For example - a friend of mine fell in love who was always straight, fell in love with a trans man. She's not (wasn't) a lesbian. She fell in love with his personality, how he presented himself. He still has a vagina. He hasn't transitioned. He has no intention to. (which despite MN stats is very common). But he absolutely is a man, to all intents and purposes.
But his sex is a woman.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

You said:

Of course you can be attracted to a gender! thoughts, feelings, the way they express themselves.

And I've asked for some examples of thoughts and feelings that are specific to women, because you said that thoughts and feelings can be the basis of attraction to a specific gender.

I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm trying to understand your point of view.

Including you.

So you.

Again. Il cope.

Do you have a response to the OP, or?

I wasn't being snarky. I've read my post back. If you're willing to say what you thought was snarky il address that.

I do like that word.

That aside - I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by specific to women.

I only ever said i thought you could be attracted to gender and not sex.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I asked you a genuine question, politely, so your tone is unnecessarily snarky tbh.

But putting that to one side, this is what I find tough - I asked a very specific question politely but you didn't answer it. And that means I can't listen and understand more than I do now, which is what I would like to do.

I asked "what thoughts and feelings do you think women have that straight men are attracted to that other men don't possess?"

And you answered:

I think that some people are gender rather than sex attracted. Is that so outrageous?

I understand the words you're saying of course but I don't understand what you mean and I'm genuinely trying to.

If people are same gender attracted and as you say earlier for you that means attracted to the specific thoughts and feelings of a particular gender, what are some examples of thoughts and feelings specific to women?

I'm engaging in good faith to try to have a meaningful dialogue so please don't imply I'm being dismissive or accusing you of being 'outrageous'. I can't understand someone's opinion on a deeper level if they are unwilling to engage in good faith too.

I don't disagree.

Could you quote where I said I'm not a parent?

Sorry, I mean she's got a physical disability diagnosed in utero, as well as being neurodivergent

Yes, including me. You're not a parent and you're patronising those of us who live with teenagers 24/7. Give it a rest. You're embarrassing.

I said, very sarcastically, that im a male champion because posters attribute you to be one if you dare to move away from the narrative.

I'm not a man.

Il answer your question though.

I think that some people are gender rather than sex attracted. Is that so outrageous?

I don't need to do anything.

Everyone? You?

Il cope.

No.

And I haven't called you any names.

I was very positive about you.

There is a difference between being personal and not liking posts. It's you who seems to struggle with that .

To start with, girls/women's clothes tend to be scratchy and prioritise form over comfort. So as a neurodivergent person I tend to shop for as many clothes as I can I a mens' section, especially as I'm tall, remove the labels and I'm good!

That doesn't mean I, or my daughter, are men, we just prefer utilitarian clothes. But, weirdly, my daughter is getting questions if she's trans all the time.

If, however, she said she is trans, I would question it, as I don't believe anyone is 'born in the wrong body', and telling her, a disabled child, that she was born wrong is not something I would ever consider acceptable.

Wanda cherry picked one sentence from my post to make me look absolutely awful. Sorry, I'm not backing down.

Incidentally, you've done the same.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Of course you can be attracted to a gender! thoughts, feelings, the way they express themselves.

As a man (I think you've just said you are one if I'm not mistaken), what thoughts and feelings do you think women have that straight men are attracted to that other men don't possess?

It's a genuine question as many of us don't understand the logic this kind of statement but see it said a lot and are called transphobic if we try to understand it.

So if a straight men are same gender attracted rather than same sex attracted (in your opinion), what are the signifiers of gender (the thoughts, feelings and way they express themselves that you mentioned) specific to women?

You really need to go to bed @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou because you are pissing everyone off.

I would tend to agree, as a neurodivergent parent of neurodivergent children, that gender non-conformity is part and parcel of neurodivergency. But this is anecdotal.

Also, @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou ,
I periodically cry hot tears for a 19 year old damaged girl who used to almost live here. Who now has a beard and no breasts, and is apparently not massively happier

Also know a young man on estrogen, lovely and damaged, and still as unhappy.

I know they all believe it, they all come from a good place, but children/teenagers are not famous for good risk assessment skills, and sadly these do need to be utilised.

You've called me quite a lot of names so far.

Did you just say you are male?

Ah stopwaiting not again! It is possible to disagree with someone without calling their posts “incendiary and spiteful”!

When you said “imagine, me as the male champion!” What did you mean by that?

I think parents of autistic children do a wonderful job. It's not easy. And (imagine, me as the male champion!) think autistic women face more barriers than autistic men. I really do admire you at that level.

We can disagree on topics though, we're human.

I just don't think it's black and white. The autism references hurt me. I guess that's my own....barriers?

That was my quote in full, for anyone who read's Wandas incendiary, spiteful post which was cherry picked to make me look awful because I disagree with her views.

Please read my full response to Wanda. I will post it here for the 9am pile on which Wanda has incited.