Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

No, but I'm not in England.

No to the report.

Yes. I would like to know exactly this too rogdmum. Because one of the teens that was transitioned by their school was under a mental health clinicians care and her parent is a medical practitioner and was under 'watchful watching' and the school still changed that teen's records and socially transitioned them.

I find stopwaiting to be rather uninformed to be honest and they seem to be existing in a 'be nice' bubble. Is it because they work at the school and do not have to then have to deal with this as a parent? Because there is a fucking huge difference if you ask me, and I also do some work with the school AND I am a parent.

There is also the complete lack of acknowledgement that their one school may not be doing this, but we know from the number of posters who post on these board now and in the past, that it does happen. Just because a poster says it doesn't happen doesn't mean that it isn't happening. And FFS we have ministers AND clinicians saying it does and that it should not happen again without parental involvement.

And this poster claims that 'we' have an agenda? Yeah, we have seen that all before.

And one final question…. did they give guidance to what a school should do when the parents have clinical advice that the adults in the child’s life should follow watchful waiting and not use preferred pronouns?

And since you’ve just had the training, did LGBTYS tell you to not support social transitions without parental knowledge? If so, that would be a change from their previous training sessions to schools.

Out of curiosity, did the trainer (was it Caitlin Wood by any chance?) mention the interim Cass report at all? I ask as Mhairi Crawford, CEO of LGBTYS, told me the current ScotGov guidelines “are not impacted” by the interim report. She was very snippy.

by "caught up in this" You mean the audacity of knowing someone who is trans.
Hardly the same.

And by the way, schools aren't transitioning anyone. behind parents backs or otherwise. If you think we are binding kids you are bonkers.

Is there a reason you guys use these questioning to show you know better than the bodies who put the language, the behaviour policies and the strategies into schools in the first place?

I'm a teacher.

I've just come from an in service day where we did a full day of training with LGBT Youth Scotland and we are now certified (so believe me, as much as I'd have liked to spend my day finding boards to troll, I'm now up to date with what happens in schools).

Derailing is a stupid word, unless I jumped on talking about pineapples. EEverything I've posted has been relevant, and sadly I'm far more naive (or, as pointed out above, do I need to learn more).

If you could find me someone on this thread who is 'looking for advice' instead o just denying the existent of trans or gender, I'd be interested to see it.

I presume you dont mean me, since I wouldn't get sex and gender mixed up.

As a PP said, most people commenting have teens and are either the parents of trans teens or there are trans teens in their family, or DC's friendship groups. More and more families are becoming involved in these issues.

It's unclear whether you're trans, a teacher or a parent of a trans child but your anecdotal evidence does not trump other's 'lived experiences' or the abundance of facts and research. You seem very naive about a lot of this. But there are lots of threads here and lots of sources of information where you can learn more. Then you could stop derailing threads for others who are looking for advice.

I am also quite surprised that a poster is stating how LGB people should define their own sexual orientation while telling people off for querying exactly what these children and teens are experiencing so that it can be defined.

As for your statement about self declared identities, yes they are affirmed by schools (which I 100 percent agree with), but I've yet to see it happen without parents knowledge

the other question is what exactly* *is it you are affirming.

What are the identities. What are the criteria of a girl/boy/non binary identities.

How can you affirm anything without knowing? You cant jusy say " anyone who identifies as X" identifies as what? What are the characteristics? Given everyone is different the criteria is either so wide it covers anyone and everyone. Or it's an extremely narrow box in which case their must be some defining criteria that they all have in common or how would they know what does or doesn't make them a boy or a girl?

If you have involvement in schools then you deal with that 1000/2000 Kids in high school? What's the single common denominator that tips them over the edge between a girl who likes all the same Things and does all the same things as a girl who said she's a boy, but still says she's a girl?

What are you affirming?

You cant identify as something you cant define. So define a girl identity and a boy identity so the rest if us can work.our if we have one too

No, they would not think they can change sex, because nobody actually is telling them that, despite MN's insistence that they are.

The OP said her son had been taught that people can "change their gender". If you are so sure that children aren't being taught that they can change sex, can you explain what you think is meant by changing "gender"? Or are you suggesting that the OP is mistaken and children aren't being taught that they can change their "gender"?

As for your statement about self declared identities, yes they are affirmed by schools (which I 100 percent agree with), but I've yet to see it happen without parents knowledge.

Yet there are parents posting on this site who have experienced exactly this with their children. And school policies on transgender often state that parents shouldn't be told if a child identifies as trans.

The Interim report from the Cass review makes it clear that social transition is not a neutral act and is considered an intervention, with significant psychological effects on the child, which schools are not qualified to make. What qualifies you to assert that the findings of the review are wrong?

And no, its not encouraging "confusion", and its really patronising of you to continue to refer to it as that simply because you dont agree with it.

If a girl insists she is a boy, when we all know that people can't change sex, do you not think that child is confused?

cross post.

This poster has an outstandingly high horse it seems.

FFS. This thread has taken the usual turn I see.

The old tropish ‘you don’t really care’ has been played. And now the old ‘you don’t know any trans teens’.

This board has many parents of teens posting daily. It is a board on a parenting site after all. What’s the chances that some of those posting on this very thread are parents of teens or younger children and are very much aware of what is happening in schools? There are also quite a number of teachers who post regularly on this board. So, please stop the crap of ‘you don’t really care, it is just an agenda’.

No. This is something many posters on this board are dealing with on a daily basis. We care because it is OUR children who are dealing with the impact of these issues on a daily basis.

And we know and love teenagers and tweens who have declared they are trans.

I also happen to know two sets of parents where the school did indeed socially transition their teens without the parents knowledge- at the records level. I know another handful with names and pronouns used at the use that parents know nothing about.

And that is just among a couple of forms in one year group at one school. I hear stories from other parents at other schools telling me the same thing.

The point is that we care about our children and their friends. We know our children and their friends and what they are going through and where the information is coming from.

It is always interesting when that old trope keeps getting rolled out here. It is an attempt to discredit other posters. Usually when someone has nothing else to add to counter a statement from an expert like Dr Hillary Cass.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou
you have dismissed the views of parents on this thread who actually have trans identifying children. Get off your high horse. And stop scolding posters, repeating ‘be polite’ is not furthering your arguments.
This is very real for some of us, the nonsense you are coming out with is incredible. Social transitioning is a significant step on the pathway. We are not in the US so it is more difficult for children to progress to medical intervention before they are ‘adults’ at 18. This doesn’t mean we should ignore the significance of ‘only’ changing names, pronouns, haircuts, clothing, binders etc.

Schools have guidence fir girls doing pe wearing binders fgs. Mermaids have it on their website too.

Binding is extremely dangerous and can permanently deform ribs.

Amd we don't need to work in a school we all have children either caught up in this or friends with children caught up in this.

You seem to be working on the basis that because you think medical intervention is rare you can go along with it all mo matter what harm it does because someone else will gate keep it from getting to out of hand.

You are using others to be the " bad guys " so you can be the good guy.

Well kids are binding In schools. Schools are transitioning children behind the parents backs and binders cause irreversible damage. None of this is OK. And you just filled my bingo card with the paper thing. No source is ever good enough. And whike you express horror at opening articles from whatever paper dares represent an alternative you , you pretend none of this is happening.

It is. And just because < insert approved news source here> aren't reporting on it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Transgender, as with all LGBT, is part of the RE Curriculum. It has been for a number of years, and it features in PSE as well. As does sex education.

You are behaving as if we sit down and tell them all to be transgender.

No, they would not think they can change sex, because nobody actually is telling them that, despite MN's insistence that they are.

As for your statement about self declared identities, yes they are affirmed by schools (which I 100 percent agree with), but I've yet to see it happen without parents knowledge. And no, its not encouraging "confusion", and its really patronising of you to continue to refer to it as that simply because you dont agree with it.

I said only 10 percent of people physically transition.

So unless these mythical children are all undertakng medical transition and then de-transitioning, I'm nt sure how that happens (other than the fact us demon schools are all forcing it upon them, of course).

I would honestly suggest that the answer to this, and similar scenarios, is talk to the child. Talk to the school. Don't put words in peoples' mouths and start talking about the myth of changing sex, as I've never actually heard that said. Hopefully you may meet some trans teenagers, as I do and have, and you might see why I'm being so what you believe to be obtuse.

You can tell by the above posts that none of you have set foot in a school or known any trans teenagers in recent years.

The times and random studies online can....well, its still early, so I'll be polite.

The part that is wrong is the hype about medical transition.

It's actually pretty rare.

This is what the Cass review interim report says about social transition which is happening to many children:

Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning.

It's a psychological intervention. Not a medical treatment with drugs or surgery, but still an intervention which affects the psychological wellbeing of the child.

And as for the children being harmed by medical treatments, how many victims do there have to be before you stop dismissing them as 'rare' cases?

The OP said her son has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school.

What do you think this means? Do you think that this child and his classmates have had the difference between sex and gender explained clearly to them or do you think they would take from such an explanation that people can change sex?

Children are having their self declared transgender identities affirmed by schools, often without their parents' knowledge. Is this not encouraging them in their confusion?

Where does your figure of 10% of these children being given medical treatment come from?

OP, please note that the word gender is a social construct and the word sex is the right one. Even Stonewall used to use 'sex' before they lobbied so much on trans.

The times recently reported over 50 under 18s having had mastectomies.

Is that enough irreversible damage for you ?

But OP asked for advice for someone she knows,

The part that is wrong is the hype about medical transition.

It's actually pretty rare.

Which part is wrong stop ?

That gender identity is unverifiable and undefined ? Because all their ever is is circular definitions. There are no blood tests or brain scans or elimination testing that shows anything.

Its 100 percent a verbal declaration. A verbal declaration that someone is over 18 would not be sufficient at work it certainly shouldn't be sufficient to undergo irreversible treatment.

That we aren't obligated to validate identity? Because we aren't. I have as much responsibility to participate in someone else's believe system as I do to pay for your shopping .

That we shouldn't outsource our care and well being to strangers?

See above. We do not have to play along. That's what friends family and your dr are for. Not unconsenting strangers.