Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

a quick research will do that for you. they are two completely separate concepts.

Perhaps you would be good enough to give us the low down on these two completely separate concepts as you seem to be knowledgeable.

Thanks for that extremely helpful reply.

I've been reading and posting on here for about 6 years, and my understanding is that a person is trans if they suffer from gender dysphoria.

Of course there is also the all-encompassing Stonewall trans umbrella, under which we also have people such as crossdressers who obviously don't suffer from gender dysphoria. There is also the condition starting with 'A' which we are not allowed to mention, where 'gender euphoria' is more common than gender dysphoria, although in this article it is included as a type of gender dysphoria.
But crossdressing and the A-word are normally associated with adults, not children.

When discussing children I had always assumed that they are gender dysphoric, rather than indulging a hobby or sexual fetish. Are you saying I'm wrong and some of these children are just crossdressers?

I honestly dont mean to be dismissive of a different viewpoint.

The snark and sarcasm given to posters is a result of their behaviour towards me. Not one of them has given me any leeway in this thread and pops up every so ofte , which is also not the nicest to be on the end of.

With the greatest of respect DZ, you have been one of the posters doing the type of behaviour im talking about and ive ignored several deliberate incendiary posts from you to other posters aimed at me.

The sentence about the thread being about me is pathetic. It wasnt aimed at you, it wasnt to you, so there is no need for you to comment (again) and therefore do the exact same thing you are accusing me of.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Please try to take on board how your tone is coming across to people - it's not just me, it's clearly coming across the same to others too.
It's got a sarcy, snarky vibe and sounds flippantly dismissive of differing viewpoints. I don't think you mean to come across that way, I think it is a default defence mechanism that you keep going to without meaning to. But it's frustrating and unproductive to keep being on the receiving end of.

Rufus has popped up numerous times now to do the same thing, if you read back through the thread.

Ive ignored several, several snarky posts aimed at me, Rufus included. Every so often I am surely allowed to address it.

On a side note, i like merailing as a word. I am having that.

crosspost, youvegottenminutesLynn.

stopwaiting your responses are really off. Please stop being rude. This entire thread is not just about you, and whether you are paranoid or acting in bad faith, you are derailing.

Im in Scotland and work in a school
Which part of 'have you believe' do you think im doing?

When was the last time you completed your LGBT youth training or saw a PSE or RE lesson?

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I'm saying this as someone who I think has had respectful dialogue with you... You're doing that thing again when you're getting needlessly snarky with people.

Someone agreed with something I said and told me it was a good post. Something people do all over the internet on forums every day.

The post in question was (as I think all of mine to you have been) polite and measured, so this wasn't someone adding to a pile on or character assassination.

By responding the way you did, accusing them of 'popping up' to have a go at you, you've made the conversation about you again when I was talking about the very real children we are concerned about and you say you're concerned about too, which I'm sure is true.

You're in danger of merailing every time you centre yourself that way. It's unproductive and it makes it hard for people to engage in good faith.

Youre not that daft. We both know what youre doing. Just as everything is peaceful, its not needed.

Everyone is interacting with you

does that mean I can’t comment on anyones posts?

The definition doesn’t matter. If a child says they have gender distress or dysphoria and wants to socially transition in school, LGBTYS promotes a blanket approach instead of telling schools to follow GIRFEC principles. There are no situations re re quested support for social transition where LGBTYS even hint that there might be alternative paths for the school to take.

chatting about what they wanted to do / be that they felt wasn't possible as a boy etc to understand more about their thinking and help them realise that they don't have to tick off a particular set of attributes to fit into an old fashioned and outdated stereotype is positive, not negative.

That also seems to me to chime perfectly with the curriculum, as it's supposed to be taught (I'm in Scotland). The RSHP resources have lots of great material challenging sexism, which is then often immediately contradicted by some of the transgender lessons.

I can imagine it's difficult to strike the right balance - our schools so far have had a light touch and teaching has been sensible and grounded.

It is possible to have a nuanced, sensitive and considerate conversation about the issues, despite what some would have you believe.

Do you honestly believe these conversations haven't taken place?

Or is the scaremongering that bad that people genuinely believe there is no process whatsoever?

Depends on your definition of GD. Diagnosis?

a quick research will do that for you. they are two completely separate concepts.

Rufus is the sole purpose of your existence on this thread to pop up to agree with anyone interacting with me, however peaceful? I'm wondering if that's the idea.

youvegottenminuteslynn

excellent posts

And iet’s say there are trans children who don’t have gender distress/dysphoria, that doesn’t take away from the fact that LGBTYS give a blanket approach for children with gender distress/dysphoria who want to socially transition at school, that the principles of GIRFEC are being ignored.

If a 'trans child' doesn't have gender dysphoria, what is it that makes them trans?

I consider myself privileged that I've never questioned myself in the sense of my gender, and I guess ultimately I dont believe that adding more confusion and stress by doing what is effectively dismissing their feelings is the right way forward.

I don't think it's dismissive at all to explain gender is a social construct, discuss the stereotypes used to represent each gender and talk about why them not ticking all the boxes of the one that corresponds with either boy or girl doesn't define whether they are a boy or girl. It's more confusing to suggest that gender stereotypes define whether you're a boy or a girl.

I don't think it's dismissive, I think having a calm and interesting conversation with them and explaining they can have interests, hobbies, passions etc that traditionally fit into a stereotype box but have no need to, could actually be affirming and empowering.

Saying 'don't be stupid, you're a boy' is dismissive and something I would never say. Asking them why they felt they weren't a boy, chatting about what they wanted to do / be that they felt wasn't possible as a boy etc to understand more about their thinking and help them realise that they don't have to tick off a particular set of attributes to fit into an old fashioned and outdated stereotype is positive, not negative.

I dont disagree with you at all, I really don't.

I guess the nub of the disagreement will always be this. I didn't invent the concept transgender, my own opinions on it aside, its my professional responsibility to support the children in the way outlined by guidance, in line with what they believe.

In the same way I disagree with aspects of the curriculum/exams, or the behaviour policy, but it's not my role to challenge them.

I consider myself privileged that I've never questioned myself in the sense of my gender, and I guess ultimately I dont believe that adding more confusion and stress by doing what is effectively dismissing their feelings is the right way forward.

But my point @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou is that if gender is a social construct based on a rigid set of stereotypes then how can someone identify as a gender and it mean something?

I identify as a woman because I am biologically a woman. My characteristics, interests, passions, hobbies, desires etc wouldn't fit neatly into a male / female gender box. There are some stereotypes of my gender that I individually happen to conform to and some that I go against. That doesn't make me any more or less woman.

This is why I feel it's empowering for people to reject the concept of gender as it is so limiting and instead focus on themselves as individuals, their passions / talents / dreams / interests etc without trying to decide if that hugely complex and nuanced group of 'what makes you, you' happens to tally with their genitals.

Until someone can define gender in a way that isn't 'just a feeling', it doesn't feel right to me to encourage children to believe they are the 'wrong' one for their body.

I don't disagree (although I don't believe there's any correlation between sexuality and gender).

I was the same, I cut about in my brothers clothes for most of my teens.

But time does move on. I probably shouldn't use the word Stonewall on here but I met Ian McKellen through work a few times. He was "straight" until his late life because it was illegal to not be.

Can you imagine how many gay men or women were convinced that they weren't?

I don't think that's a huge world away from insisting to a transgender child that they can't be. As you said, people can be what they want.