Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

I dont disagree about the rooms, or prisons, or toilets.

However, they didnt see them as a boy. They accepted that he saw himself as a boy.

And as i said earlier, its one story from America which doesnt counteract everything else.

If the neighbour's child wants to call himself James, wear trousers and a hoody and considers himself a boy, is that really so traumatising for this child to comprehend? Children are very, very accepting.

But this also feeds into yet another generation of girls being told they aren't 'girl' enough if they want to wear 'boy' clothes for example.

That there's something wrong with them that needs fixing or rebranding instead of just being part of who they are.

Instead of the aim being that it's acceptable for girls to wear 'boy' clothes shouldn't the aim be that it's ridiculous jeans and hoodies or short hair or football etc etc are so gendered in 2022 that they're considered 'boy' things that girls need to identify into rather than just do / have.

I don't agree with the stonewall umbrella per se, so I'm maybe not the best to ask.

Transition is rare. but in answer to your question, yes. In the same way people have all sorts of cosmetic surgery without having diagnosed GD. In answer to "the moving", I am fortunate enough it's not something i get either, because I just am who I am, wear what I want, and thankfully nobody else is in the least bit interested.

But for these people, its important, and I think we need to respect that. I don't think its a case that everyone thinks they most "swallow the lie" because of the mental health statistics, but theyre certainly a factor.

Why would I make life more difficult for someone whos outcome I can't ultimately change anyway? If young Rebecca wants to be Robert and her parents are OK with it and she is being supported, if I huff and puff and tell her its not possible will she have an epiphany and change her mind? No. Of course she won't. Teenagers are difficult enough to advise that we as adults know anything at the best of times, let alone people with all of that going on in her head.

I don't think so, or I hope not. I would like to think by now that gender and sex are separate enough - (although don't get me started on 'gender reveals').

Re your second part, they believe gender is a spectrum, but i dont think they believe the other. Transition is very, very rare, and again I can only speak for me, but its not something we see a lot of, especially as non binary takes off.

To try and get somehow connected with the OP, I think it is other people who make it a bigger deal. a 12 year old does not need the ins and outs of the types of things we are discussing.

If the neighbour's child wants to call himself James, wear trousers and a hoody and considers himself a boy, is that really so traumatising for this child to comprehend? Children are very, very accepting.

Someone I know once invited children in the class to quite an active party we were having. A child turned up with quite a significant disability, making access difficult.

They asked their child why they had mentioned it and the child's response was pretty much, "why would I?"

In life, we meet all sorts of different people. I can totally understand the worry with your own child, and your story has really touched me rod. Not having your wishes honoured is outrageous.

But if a parent chooses to let it ride its course, as I have seen it happen, and let the child figure it out, does it really have to be a big discussion in every household in the neighbourhood? Or is that us putting our opinions into things that really don't concern us? And no, I don't think it concerns the OP what another families' child is doing.

People can be transgender without GD and vice verse.

I would consider trans gender an action as opposed to gender dysphoria. Actively moving to the gender you would prefer to be, as opposed to dysphoria.

I can understand how people might have gender dysphoria but not be trans. But I don't understand what trans is without gender dysphoria (unless it's things like crossdressing/transvestism, which is under the stonewall trans umbrella).

If you don't have gender dysphoria, why would you need to 'move to the gender you would prefer to be'? Why not just be yourself? I'm not sure I even understand what 'moving to the gender you would prefer to be' means. If it's just about gender stereotypes like clothing and interests, why does it even need a label? You surely wouldn't become a lifelong medical patient reliant on artificial hormones and undergoing major surgery if you didn't have gender dysphoria would you?

I don't expect this story to stop children feeling or expressing their distress.

I do expect people to turn their brains on and realise that some adults' choices to prioritise demonstrating that they saw this child as a boy led to more abuse. An abused child paid for the adults' virtue signalling with their own body.

This child should have been given a private room straight away. As late as 15 years ago, trans acceptance would have meant giving this female child a private room in order to keep them safe while respecting their identity and privacy.

Now it means simultaneously claiming that a boys' unit and boys' communal showers and so on are too dangerous for male children who identify as trans or non-binary, and yet perfectly safe for female children who identify as trans because "they're boys". It is not how it works. It has never been how it works, which is why corrective rape of female people (lesbians and transmen) is something that some men commit.

It needs to stop. Female children with gender dysphoria are just as worthy of protection as any other child, and that is not how they are being treated.

So where will that take us? I see a move towards encouraging a kind of gender pick 'n' mix approach, where children are raised to think that gender and sex are completely interchangeable and that we can choose which sex characteristics we prefer.

It's the logical progression of the collapse of definitions of 'sex' and 'gender', I think. They've been confused and conflated for so long that some people genuinely now believe 'sex is a spectrum' and go by the Mr Potato-head school of biology, in which any body can have any combination of body parts removed/grafted on/rebuilt.

Yes. If you're asking me as a person - yes.

I wouldn't say its about behaviour. We see more of a physical transformation than anything. In all honesty, gender fluidity is on the rise to such an extent that a "transgender" pupil wouldn't stick out in a group of children, if that makes sense.

As we said earlier, I don't disagree that people should just...........well, be. but wishing and wanting that doesn't change it, and I don't know what the answer is.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Actively moving to the gender you would prefer to be, as opposed to dysphoria.

But how do you 'move to the gender you would prefer to be' in a real sense?

Only do 'boy' things and no 'girl' things?

Because even boys don't only do 'boy' things.

To say a child is changing gender seems to mean to you that the child will start presenting as the gender stereotypes associated with the opposite sex.

Wouldn't it be more empowering to say they are still a boy / girl and can enjoy any activity, hobby, passion, clothing, talent etc they want without having to neatly fit into a checklist of stereotypes?

I've been working for a few years now so I can only go on updated training in schools - I will have a look at the NQT training (incidentally, when I trained, we didnt have input from them).

In terms of the GD and transgender diagnosis I would presume that is part of the process. For example, I have had communication such as x in Sx is now identifying as x and should be called x.

I have also had communication to say that pupil x is referring to themselves as x but their register name and sex should be used and any issues to be raised with staff member x. (hence why I was horrified by your story).

In terms of the transition, I've seen it play out in many ways. I've seen pupils who do not physically change, pupils who I would say sit closer to non binary. LGBTY's latest line appears to be that it can change "day by day".

As GD is a psychological condition (not mental illness) that can be diagnosed, I would imagine it would be dealt with like any other condition experienced by a pupil - a plan put in place and relevant communication passed to staff.

The difference is, GD doesnt cause transgender. There are many people who live with GD without identifying as transgender (in all honesty i believe thats where non binary has developed from).

So stopwaiting how does LGBTYS make it clear in their teacher training that it is possible to live with GD without identifying as transgender? How do they give different options to children? What do they suggest other than social transition?

I said this earlier, and i think it still stands. The last two years for us , as with everyone, has been really difficult amd ive seen some really wrenching scenes. I think its replicating (or playing out) in my temper in the topic in general as i dont habe the same emotions about gender in sports or prisons, for example

Appreciate I am very late to this thread but this is almost word for word how I approached this with my own teenage son, the comparison with religion seemed to make it accessible to him.

I would consider trans gender an action as opposed to gender dysphoria. Actively moving to the gender you would prefer to be, as opposed to dysphoria.

Fwiw its not that I personally identify with these concepts or necessarily agree with them, im talking about what i understand them to be and how we (or schools, or.LGBTY does)

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Perhaps i have some pondering to do over my defense mechanism as you accurately put it.

I genuinely think it would be really helpful because it means you're operating from a place of defence and being combative when people are actually often asking quite thoughtful questions.

When someone doesn't share the core belief you have, it may feel like any question at all about that topic is an attack or accusation.

But sometimes people really are trying to understand, as it's a topic that's affecting many of us and making us worried about young people we know, love and want to see thrive.

i generally dont know what word you mean....are you allowed to say it on tne basis of this interaction?

Autogynephilia. (This post will probably be deleted in a few minutes).

It’s the whole gendered soul, isn’t it Old ? The belief in the gendered soul that leads my daughter’s crackpot school to declare that there are some parents who believe their child is gender dysphoric RATHER than trans (and that they don’t support these parents). I have this sneaking suspicion that’s the next step after self ID in Scotland. With the removal of the medical diagnosis of GD, I bet the lobby groups will start pushing the idea that GD is a made up condition.

Ive revisited my answer to Crone, I took it as an attack that it wasnt

I hope my second answer answers that better.

Crossdressing is a different thing again, see Jamie from Everybodys Talking about Jamie, for example

a quick research will do that for you. they are two completely separate concepts.

Answers like this are part of the problem I think @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou because you've been asked a genuine question then aren't replying in a constructive way. A quick Google absolutely doesn't explain what is a very nuanced topic which isn't clearly and definitively defined anywhere - much is based on theory and opinion. Hence biology is undeniable but other topics are more complicated than that.

So if I was you instead of giving a dismissive answer like yours, I would have taken on board the question and answered with my own personal definition of the two concepts / what makes them different to one another etc. Because I would want to share what might be a new and interesting opinion with someone I'm engaging with, to both try to see where the other is coming from even if you don't end up on common ground. That would be my approach.

Whereas this particular one from you was a bit like when you challenge a conspiracy theorist to provide evidence and get a 'do your own research' answer because they never have reliable links! Which then undermines their cause and makes people not take them seriously.

I really have tried to be fair and measured on this thread which is why it's disappointing when people ask genuine questions many of us are asking (e.g. if gender isn't something you can define, how can someone be transgender?) and they're batted away.

So if the poster was to ask you that same question again, what would your answer be?

The question was:

If a 'trans child' doesn't have gender dysphoria, what is it that makes them trans?

Thanks for being patient with me.

Im not actually a massive cow IRL. Perhaps i have some pondering to do over my defense mechanism as you accurately put it.

Yeah, il wind my neck in as well Rufus. I caused that one

@OldCrone i generally dont know what word you mean....are you allowed to say it on tne basis of this interaction?

As posters have pointed out there i was a cow there to you. I didnt mean to be. I didnt read it as a genuine question, and I get really annoyed at the GD thing because to me its an attempt to explain away trans.

GD is distress or discomfort surrounding their gender assigned and gender identity. Simply put, inside and outside. This is a psychologically diagnosed condition.

The difference is, GD doesnt cause transgender. There are many people who live with GD without identifying as transgender (in all honesty i believe thats where non binary has developed from).

Dysphoria can continue ecen with the change of gender.

People can be transgender without GD and vice verse.

Although, apologies

im in danger of making this part of the thread all about me so I’ll stop 😊

but I’ll continue to comment moving forward

I’ve read every single post on here

sometimes I comment and some times I don’t, and sometimes im in the mood to stay on a thread for a bit

there’s not much i can do about that