Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

Transition is very rare though, so its unlikely.

Incidentally I know 2 trans adults - both transmen, and both married to women with children.

Totally agree.

On all counts - except (sorry, I know posters will be rolling their eyes)

A transman would effectively then live as a man, with all of the perceived benefits of that, while being support by womens' rights.

A transwoman has the fight of his life.

Thankfully, OP is referring to children, so we don't need to worry about that wider debate.

Children grow into adults and so the issues being spoken about now are a natural, organic development in the discussion.

Yet the threads regarding the fear for women's safety - changing rooms, toilets, prisons (which I;ve already said I am on board with) dominate each trans topic, despite the fact the majority of young trans people are transmen.

And the majority of older ones are male. These are the ones who could be a danger to women and children. Not because they are trans but because they are male. In general, children identifying as trans are not a danger to anyone. Teenage boys might be, for the same reason as men are. Girls who identify as trans are not a danger to anyone (except possibly themselves).

Would you consider a young transman to have woman's rights?

Of course. Transmen are female. Women's rights are for all women, even those who don't want to be women.

Thankfully, OP is referring to children, so we don't need to worry about that wider debate. I feel like I've opened a can of worms, but my point was only ever to highlight from previous discussion that the barrier to gender being label less actually isn't from a female perspective, it's from a male. So until we can accept that boys may want to identify as a female (and I'm talking boys, not men) for similar reason to young females, those labels will stay. Girls wanting to be boys will be treated as GD or having some kind of mental illness or the victim of misogyny, and boys will be viewed with suspicion, whereas ultimately, young boys and girls are not responsible for the actions of their older counterparts.

That is unfair

Are you honestly telling me that you think a transwomen child (14, 15) who wants to start wearing make up and dresses receives the same understanding and support from peers as a female child who is identifying as a boy?

Young transwomen (children) aren't trying to "muscle in", either.

Would you consider a young transman to have woman's rights?

Absolutely. A transman is still at risk of the same sex based violence as any other natal women. Their rights as biological women are therefore very specific to their sex.

Women aren't raped and murdered because they identify as female. They're raped and murdered because they are biologically female.

No doubt someone would call me a transphobe for wanting to protect transmen from the innate risks of being a biological women though!

But young transmen aren't trying to muscle in on women's sex-based rights, as transwomen are. Transwomen have all the privilege of being socialised as boys & men; and part of that privilege is that they just don't realise how selfish and misogynist they're being in all the TWAW ideology.

Didnt mean that offensively at all, DZ. I've said numerous times I'm on board in terms of the arguments about prisons and separate spaces.

But I do wonder if that colours people's views of trans children, or increases the fear. When in fact young transwomen (ie school age) is staggeringly rare, because school boys face more of a stigma than girls.

Genuine question, btw.

Yet the threads regarding the fear for women's safety - changing rooms, toilets, prisons (which I;ve already said I am on board with) dominate each trans topic, despite the fact the majority of young trans people are transmen.

Which always fascinates me.

Would you consider a young transman to have woman's rights?

Yes, lots of men indignant that women have shelters and there is less provision for men. As if they all just fell out of the sky. The Great Invisible Mother provides.

And if men want to fight for changes, they're very welcome to. They have ample resources and opportunity as a sex class to change things systemically in comparison to women

This. But somehow, it's the women ho are expected to do the work.

I remember when feminists campaigning for, raising money for, and setting up things like rape crisis groups and women's shelters, were criticised, excoriated & abused - for daring to speak out about male violence.

Now the same women are expected to campaign for, raise money for, and set up services for the same sex class that ridiculed them for doing tis 30 or 40 years ago.

What i mean is, the adult hot topic on Mn is transwomen, rightly so.

The 'adult hot topic' on here is women, and women's rights.

Fear of bigotry.

Which is silly really.

I remember as a teen being desperate to get changed alone cause i hated the idea we should all be fine to just get.changed together.

Ironically, i dont like womens tracksuit bottoms.

I wear mens boxers and tracksuits cause i like the fit
😂

No no, not an argument! I agree with you.

What i mean is, the adult hot topic on Mn is transwomen, rightly so. It was more a reference to Crone (i think)s post about trans pupils in rooms. If anything it was more just to make the point that the majority are transmen, and that boys have as much stigma as us in that regard. Maybe it was clumsily worded but it was meant to agree with you that actually label less would be easier.

I don't blame you given that youce spent most of that typing winding my neck in!

Oh and @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou you do know you can buy trackies too, you don't have to wear someone else's just because you're a woman!

I don't disagree, but I think women have far more advantage on that front, if I'm honest. Appearance wise, we can be label-less. I can go out with no make up, hair in a bun, wearing my boyfriend's trackies. Men face way more barriers.

...I haven't said otherwise at any point. You seem so keen to argue you add a 'but' and then a new argument after you agree with people!

And if men want to fight for changes, they're very welcome to. They have ample resources and opportunity as a sex class to change things systemically in comparison to women. But that's a whole other topic.

Maybe I'm just tired and grumpy but I think I've used up all my sensible typing for the day.

Back in my day (which was not that long ago!) all the trans friends I had, whether born male or female, said that overnight school trips had been nightmares because they didn't want anyone else seeing their bodies. Not people of their own sex, and not people of the sex they wished to live as. As young adults, the male ones said they didn't want to remind girls of their male bodies, because it made it harder for their female peers to perceive them as girls. The female ones recollected wanting to feel able to take off their binders without an audience overnight. They all wished they'd been entitled to request private rooms.

But at some point, it became the party line that placing kids with the sex they identified with was the trans-friendly thing to do. I don't understand why.

I don't disagree, but I think women have far more advantage on that front, if I'm honest. Appearance wise, we can be label-less. I can go out with no make up, hair in a bun, wearing my boyfriend's trackies.

Men face way more barriers.

I would be on board with private rooms.

You make a good point re their assessment of judgement.

We are focusing a lot though on transmen which is good - the age old arguments about transwomen in toilets and prisons being brought into these arguments isn't fair game because we know the majority of transgender pupils are transmen.

However, as I said earlier - I understand the fear around sexual violence, but part of my issue with that is that it;s always the ultimate debate, isnt it - rape and sexual violence are so abhorrent that when they're in the picture people will always react stronger.

The reality is that a transwoman (child) would face far more stigma, abuse and difficulty than a transman (child). So if we have concerns about trans, we need to move away from the females and look at the issues for the boys.

It's not a one-off though, is it? We have has threads on here with the same situation of female children being placed with male children on school trips to affirm their identities (one situation in the UK is alleged to ended in the female teen being raped) and pages of MNers claiming that it is transphobic to give a private room to a female child who doesn't want to be placed with the other female children. Some of the MNers in favour claim to be teachers. I hope to god they're not.

A female child may see themselves as a boy, but this does not mean they should have sleeping arrangements that put them with the boys, even if that's what they ask for. Teenagers don't assess risk well. If it was up to children and teens, most of them wouldn't wear seatbelts on school trips, either. I don't trust a 12 year old's judgement on that, so I wouldn't trust their judgement on what risk of sexual violence their male peers pose.

But if gender stereotypes and gender pigeonholes were discouraged then anyone could wear what they want without needing to label themselves or rebrand themselves! Shouldn't that be the goal rather than reinforcing gender stereotypes and the arbitrary rules that are based on them?

Yes, but theyre in a school.

If anything the odds are against the boys - I wear a jumper and skinny jeans to work some days but my male colleague couldn't rock up in a skirt.