Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

Sorry, the "trans child" in the OP is a boy.

The 'trans child' in the OP is a girl. This is the first sentence of the OP:
My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother.

We are talking about, the conversation, we originally had, why society can't be label less.

If it should be, or is, kids wouldn't need to bind either (incidentally, I don't agree with that either).

Exactly!!! Which is why I think children being encouraged to change their gender identity is damaging. Because it encourages labelling behaviours / interests / hobbies / preferences that are gender stereotypes.

If you agree that gender labels are harmful and unnecessary then you cannot agree with children changing their gender identity rather than being just themselves, a person who happens to enjoy stuff that was traditionally associated with the opposite sex.

You'd be called transphobic for this on Twitter. Or anywhere else, by TRAs.

You mean like when people refuse to accept what trans kids tell them what they mean by it?

Annoying, isn it?

Well, I reject privilege as a concept, so if you can't cope with that, given that its nothing to do with the OP, we will just have to agree to disagree!

Ironic that you say you're going because you cant figure out my statement whereas you claim that I sound like I think X group of people are where they are because of something innate to them, whcih I completely reject, and in fact is something you are arguing!

If you still completely reject privilege as a concept you are in danger of sounding like you think X group of people are where they are because of something innate to them, not because they are disadvantaged in a society that discriminates on numerous levels by Y.

Absolutely this.

And the poster is saying this all while arguing that trans boys have privileges that trans girls dont!

I've been so patient and measured tonight and I try so hard to be kind and really listen and take on board other POV.

But it always, always comes down to 'girls and women don't have it as feminists they portray' or 'men face more hardship'.

It's exhausting.

Thats a change of argument, though.

We are talking about, the conversation, we originally had, why society can't be label less.

If it should be, or is, kids wouldn't need to bind either (incidentally, I don't agree with that either).

You can't compare able bodied privilege to race or gender privilege because one is physically possible and one isn't.

I'm going to have to leave it here because I genuinely can't parse your statements. Gnight!

Yes, but a black teenager facing disadvantages COULD go on and be a hollywood millionaire, despite the odds being stacked.

The odds are stacked for them more than a white person, when all else is equal.

Because privilege.

A disadvantaged white youth is not privileged in the traditional sense of the word.

But they have white privilege in that of every hardship they face, their race isn't one of them.

It is a factual statement that someone white will not face the barriers someone black will, but "privilege" suggests better than, better off than.

It might suggest that if you refuse to accept what people tell you they mean by it, yes.

There are many more factors in life than sex, gender and race, and every one of us can end up on our arse.
Correct, but that's got nothing to do with privilege.

If you still completely reject privilege as a concept you are in danger of sounding like you think X group of people are where they are because of something innate to them, not because they are disadvantaged in a society that discriminates on numerous levels by Y.

When it comes to trans, despite all the concerns (which incidentally as I asked earlier, do they come from the abhorrent stories about adult men - given that I've already agreed i don't agree with mixed changing) the biggest barrier to gender being label less and childhood trans is not our view of girls. It's our view of boys. If a girl came to school with short hair, baggy jeans and a shirt, no one would bat an eyelid. If a boy came to school in a skirt and make up....?

Boys aren't binding their breasts and causing permanent damage. For example.

One is possible. The other isn't.

You can't compare able bodied privilege to race or gender privilege because one is physically possible and one isn't.

We have completely diverted here though and won't agree.

@OldCrone i will ask you what I've asked others.

As a woman with female friends, female nieces, female relatives - why do you think I would "what about" when we are all at risk?

I've acknowledged several times in this thread that I'm on board with separate spaces, dont agree with mixed prisons, etc etc.

So just because I care about my boy pupils as much as my female pupils its "what about the men?"

No. Its what about ALL pupils.

The diversion to men started because I identified that the barrier to gender just being "label less" is not girls - girls have it much easier in that department. Its boys. Boys have the odds stacked against them (I'd say men, because to me 17 year olds are men, but I don't want to be misunderstood again).

When it comes to trans, despite all the concerns (which incidentally as I asked earlier, do they come from the abhorrent stories about adult men - given that I've already agreed i don't agree with mixed changing) the biggest barrier to gender being label less and childhood trans is not our view of girls. It's our view of boys. If a girl came to school with short hair, baggy jeans and a shirt, no one would bat an eyelid. If a boy came to school in a skirt and make up....?

My point being, we are passing on our concerns and anger (rightful anger) about adult men onto young boys. And that ultimately has a waterfall effect on all children, trans or otherwise.

If you look above you will see I ground the chat about adults in its tracks and referred back to children and it was picked up again.

Able and disability isn't a comparison though, is it? Because it's a physical fact.

It is probably me being dense but I don't understand this post... sorry!

Yes, but a black teenager facing disadvantages COULD go on and be a hollywood millionaire, despite the odds being stacked.

Someone who is disabled could never go on and win a marathon or be a footballer.

What has that got to do with privilege? Why is one trying to be a millionaire and one trying to win at sports? I am so lost.
You've literally said "despite the odds being stacked". That's what privilege is!!

Sorry, I missed this

Sorry, the "trans child" in the OP is a boy.

No, I diverted discussion because a PP started talking about the overwhelming number of transwomen and the affect that has on womens' rights.

I haven't what about the menned once.

I've what about the children, absolutely.

Well, that along with the "fyi - you misgendered" for the second time - one can only assume there's a tone.

Leaving it here for the night - the dreaded 630 alarm calls.

No.
I call my own girl friends "lads" or "troops" - it's a Scottish thing.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

To be clear I wasn't copying and pasting for any other reason than I assumed you missed my explanation of why I felt how I did about your statement as I assumed you missed it. No malice intended there at all.

I also never said she shouldn't have womens' rights. That would be an odd stance for me to take given me bleating on about trans children all night. I simply expressed an opinion that a trans F-M at school age stands better odds than a M-F (and also discussed quite reasonably that I think the behaviour of transwomen in America and the awful cases we hear can colour our view of younger trans children). I didn't realise that was such an outrageous thing to say.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Not the worst guy in the world, no. Of course I don't think you're anywhere near the 'worst' if anything! I didn't think you were a guy either, but are you?

thats twice youve said that, lynn, I explaned my reasoning for that in the very post you're responding to.

The post you've just sent is a copy and paste job from further up when we had the conversation.

I'm confused by the turn.

Yes, but a black teenager facing disadvantages COULD go on and be a hollywood millionaire, despite the odds being stacked.

Someone who is disabled could never go on and win a marathon or be a footballer.

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

As explained, an 18 year old transman may effectively 'live as a man' in your words (whatever that looks like to you) but won't have had the benefits of growing up male - the physical benefits when it comes to strength, lung capacity, muscle mass etc, or the social benefits when it comes to growing up with a sense of entitlement and not having to fear people sexually overpowering you etc. Still at risk of all the vulnerabilities of any other natal female. Hence why it's important she has women's rights.

And you referred to a trans woman as 'he' FYI.

It's a factual statement, but I don't agree with the term 'privilege' s a principle. (and I say that from someone from a mixed race family). I just don't like the term privilege for anything - (I would separate the able/disabled from that, because that's a physical fact). That's just me though, and I'm just a human with an opinion. I never claimed to be the world leader of social concepts. As you might have worked out by now, I'm not a fan of divisive concepts.

It is a factual statement that someone white will not face the barriers someone black will, but "privilege" suggests better than, better off than.

There are many more factors in life than sex, gender and race, and every one of us can end up on our arse.

I don't like 'one size fits all' statements. I don't think that makes me the worst guy ever, it's just my opinion!

Able and disability isn't a comparison though, is it? Because it's a physical fact.

Someone's race is literally a physical fact!

A transman isn't a biological man though.

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

A trans woman , fresh out of school going to university wearing a dress and make up?

The odds are stacked.

I knew as soon as I typed that that I'd be picked up on that, but again, I'm picturing the teenage boy.

"Having white privilege doesn't mean that your life isn't difficult; it simply means that your skin color isn't one of the things contributing to your life difficulties."

I don't know how anyone can disagree with this explanation of white privilege as it's an absolutely factual statement. It baffles me.