Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

Exactly. Girls are SO much more likely to accept a trans boy in their friendship group than boys are likely to accept a trans girl in their friendship group. By far!

A girl playing football with the boys, wearing shorts in PE rather than leggings, wouldn't get a second glance.

Some of the boys might object to a girl invading their all male space.

A boy who hangs out with girls and wants to do dance?

The girls would probably accept him (having been socialised to be kind). Some of the other boys would laugh at him and call him offensive names.

Lack of acceptance of non manly males is something men and boys do. We can't help with that. You need to talk to the men who are the problem.

Teen years aren't a barrel of laughs for non trans girls though @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Whether they then identify as trans or not, most will have statistically experienced sexual harassment of some sort in their teen years. A sizeable minority will have experienced sexual abuse. Hugely disproportionately considering the sexes make up approx 50:50 of the population.

Trans kids aren't the only children with difficulties and as someone who doesn't recognise privilege as a concept you shouldn't ignore the difficulties a trans boy (natal girl) will have had to tackle BEFORE identifying as a boy. A natal male won't have had that level of sex class based disadvantage before identifying as a girl.

First of all, this is part of a thread from a detransitioning woman. I think her perspective is interesting.

extract

as for girls there’s another angle. in girls you will notice a similar phenomenon but reversed. many girls have the same extreme, hyper sexualized characature of what a “girl” or a “woman” is, and it serves as their reasoning for why they ARENT a “girl”

porn influences this both directly and indirectly. indirectly, the normalization and near universal regular consumption of on demand, online porn has desensitized the population at large to sexual content, resulting in hyper sexuality everywhere you look

on social media, it’s normal for women to farm attention and money by either presenting a highly sexualized image of themselves or actually selling pornography. everything from fashion to advertisements to selfies can be what previous generations would consider straight up porn.

in adolescent (minor) internet subcultures, it’s normal to talk about the porn you watch, what kinks you have, with people as young as 12 saying they have a daddy or a knife kink or that they’re “bottoms” or “tops”

in a lot of porn and in most of these porn inspired conversations, “submission” (and in many cases, what amounts to sexual torture in porn scenes) is a concept interchangeable with “woman”

this is completely normalized, and in so many cases actually seen as “EMPOWERING” for women, to the point where even if a young person felt uncomfortable with it all, they’re pressured and gaslit to not only repress those feelings but to participate in porn culture nonetheless

even for girls (and boys, probably) who DONT watch porn, who don’t participate in the porn culture (or if they do, just to fit in) the stuff is so pervasive that they will have seen (and felt horrified and violated by) pornographic imagery,

and been steeped in the hyper sexualized porn culture by their peers and social media.

the absolute PERCEPTION WARP this can cause in a young persons conception of sex, intimacy, men and women and their relationships, cannot be understated.

to girls who do not want to be sexual objects, who do not want to be sexually tortured, who do not want to become porn, but are gaslit into regurgitating that it’s all so cool and empowering and owning the patriarchy, the idea of being a “woman” under this conception is repulsive

many of us females grow up with and intuitive notion that when it comes to sex stuff, we’re inherently vulnerable. because we are. ideally a girl would explore sex in a safe way, with someone she trusts and who cares about her. but today, that developmental pathway is superseded

like boys, girls are often introduced to pornographic content before they even hit puberty. and all around them is a hyper sexualized porn fueled culture that is inescapable. the inherent anxieties of being a human female with vulnerability can be intolerable in these conditions

because it’s so pervasive, and because the world can now feel so unsympathetic to a young woman who is not hypersexual, some of these girls feel like there’s no way for them to be a girl. they are terrified of what the porn culture world is showing them a girl is supposed to be.

they don’t want to compete with porn for the attention of boys. they’re scared that all the boys are watching and loving this stuff that scares them so much. they feel inferior to other women who seem to be thriving in the porn culture, they feel something is wrong with them.

so they end up thinking that their short hair and white t shirt makes them not a girl

twitter thread

The 19 year old who wasn't allowed in a female toilet, was forced to wear boys uniform and called her dead name throughout school?

Barrel of laughs.

This transwoman, fresh out of school going to university wearing a dress and make up, are you thinking of someone like Lily Madigan? Lauded by the Labour Party, given a post of women's officer, Angela Rayner said she was just keeping the seat warm for Madigan in the HoC...

Have any transmen, or any women, ever had that sort of treatment?

I don't usually compare sexuality and gender but that is also a relevant point here.

A girl playing football with the boys, wearing shorts in PE rather than leggings, wouldn't get a second glance.

A boy who hangs out with girls and wants to do dance?

I wonder if the kids would make the same comments about sexuality. Of course they wouldnt.

I completely agree.

But a girl having short hair, wearing a hoody and a pair of jeans is very different to a boy wearing a skirt, wearing jewellery and make up and having a glittery schoolbag. Anyone who claims otherwise is being deliberately obtuse.

Sorry Purgatory, female to male, do you mean?

The reason FTM is more common in schools is ironically because it is far, far more socially acceptable. Do you really believe it's as easy for a boy to dress in female clothing in a school environment as it is for a girl?

I'd like to see the research which backs up the claim about sexual abuse.

Cross- sex identification isn't really a concept. Most people are aware you can't change sex.

The odds are stacked up against any individual who doesn't believe in themselves and who they are, but turns to stereotypes and tries to change themselves, because it isn't real.

Girl isn't a feeling it's a being. A boy cannot feel like a girl, they feel like the boy they are. The stereotype of what boys is should be extended to fit them. If they want to wear a dress, paint their nails, watch Barbie they should be encouraged to follow this, but they don't need to change.

Society needs to dismantle stereotypes so all boys feel that they are appreciated as boys and girls as girls.

Yes, but I don't agree with mixed spaces (and I have never come across a trans child being allowed to use the same space yet), and the majority of women are killed by their partner, so girls in a school environment are surely at less risk than an adult woman.

That aside, my comment was made directly in relation to labels, which you should know because it was you who made it.

The reason all children cant just be label less and who they are without the trans element is because that is not possible for biological boys. FTM have that advantage there.

Not a privilege.

A fact. worth considering, that the trans child issue is weighted in favour of the girl, while the adult trans issue is weighted in favour of men. Hence why its such a controversial issue.

You should know i dont agree with the concept of privilege.

Therefore, the odds are stacked against young MTF rather than FTM.that's just a fact.

Except when it comes to, in your own words, the fact that: Identifying as male doesn't stop sexual assault or murder.

If the biggest barrier to a society in which the sexes were both free, was our view of boys, the biggest increase in cross-sex identification would not be amongst girls, particularly autistic girls and girls who have previously been subjected to child sexual abuse.

All the trans teenagers I personally know today are female transitioners.

When it comes to trans, despite all the concerns (which incidentally as I asked earlier, do they come from the abhorrent stories about adult men - given that I've already agreed i don't agree with mixed changing) the biggest barrier to gender being label less and childhood trans is not our view of girls. It's our view of boys. If a girl came to school with short hair, baggy jeans and a shirt, no one would bat an eyelid. If a boy came to school in a skirt and make up....?

And

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

How is the above also not saying this: I also never said that trans boys have privileges that trans girls dont.

?

I didn't say that. I never once said the vulnerabilities of being a woman are compensated for as identifying as male, that's a ridiculous leap.

Identifying as male doesn't stop sexual assault or murder.

All I ever said is what I've written above which was a direct response to you asking why we can't have a label less society in the first place!

I also never said that trans boys have privileges that trans girls dont.

I dont agree with privilege as a concept as you know.
What I said was, the barrier to a "label less" society is not girls. It's boys. Which actually in effect feeds into a feminist viewpoint and questions males in general, but on this occasion I'm saying the boys have barriers at that age that the girls don't. Which is a fact.

As I said. I can go to work in jeans, trainers and a jumper but my male counterpart has to wear a shirt and tie and couldn't wear a suit.

A girl pupil could wear a similar outfit to me but a boy pupil could not realistically turn up in a skirt. that's a fact

Therefore, the odds are stacked against young MTF rather than FTM.that's just a fact.

Indeed. Goodnight.

Again, we'll fight to protect you even if you feel we have advantages as natal women that we absolutely don't and even if you think the vulnerabilities of being a natal women are somehow compensated for by identifying as male, making it harder to be a M-F trans person than a F-M trans person.

I'm baffled by the way you've said I've 'turned on' you, I really am.

I've been consistently clear, honest and measured throughout the evening.

Course you dont owe me loyalty!

But you certainly took offence to a statement and started claiming things I said that I certainly haven't.

You can't have it both ways.

You pulled me up for misgendering earlier and now you're pulling me up for correcting a misgender.

Perhaps it's time to say g'night.

One simple statement and you've completely turned, despite the fact I didn't say anything like what you're claiming above.

Please stop saying I have turned.

The conversation has developed and you've said a number of things that I found troubling and I have been honest and challenged them.

I don't know you, I don't owe you ongoing loyalty of some sort if I don't agree with you just because I am nice and speak in a calm and measured way.

I can only respond honestly to what people say. Disagreeing isn't 'turning on' an anonymous stranger. What an odd thing to think.

twitter can kiss my arse.

I deal with real people in front of me.

I'm utterly confused Lynn. We had this conversation earlier tonight. I agree that the labels are uncecessry, I agree that they should be able to just be themselves, but as a school member of staff I support the process.

You understand this an hour ago, until I said I feel that F-M trans children have the better outcome as children/teens but that I feel the M-F movement in America etc colours our view. I stand by that, and it's hardly the most controversial statemet.

Boy. He identifies as a boy.

Of course, this is the very nub of the argument.

Sorry, the "trans child" in the OP is a boy

Nope.

You were patient, you are measured, you are kind, you did listen and I appreciate it,.

"'girls and women don't have it as feminists they portray' or 'men face more hardship'." I didn't say anythning like this

I said, off the back of your own point about why gender cant be label less, that its the boys that prevent this, not the girls. Because teenage transmen face less barriers than teenage trans girls. One simple statement and you've completely turned, despite the fact I didn't say anything like what you're claiming above.