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Original poster

Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

1006 replies

GoingOnce · 28/04/2022 18:57

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

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stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:50

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:48

I've already said that I don't care what they wear.

I know you read it, because you quote tweeted it.

That is not what you were arguing. You implied boys with identities have it harder. This is an issue for men to sort out amongst yourselves. Why don't they accept men in dresses?

I didnt imply that, i said it.

No , it isnt their issue to sort out. Thats just plain sexist

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:48

I've already said that I don't care what they wear.

I know you read it, because you quote tweeted it.

That is not what you were arguing. You implied boys with identities have it harder. This is an issue for men to sort out amongst yourselves. Why don't they accept men in dresses?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:47

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:35

You knew what i meant.

Show quote history

Oh dear lord. Please don't start with the pronouncing on the inside of other people's heads.

No. I didn't. I am not psychic, and nor, despite what you may think, are you. This will come across as snippy, because right now, I am feeling extremely snippy.

If I, a woman with autism, can grasp that I do not know what people do or do not know, I am quite certain you, some kind of professional in the education field, can. <stalks off muttering>

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:46

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:45

You are being deliberately disingenuous, by repeatedly dismissing all valid challenges to your 'ideology' as cliché or fake.

Yeah, but im not.

You cant answer the question because you know its the case.

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:45

You are being deliberately disingenuous, by repeatedly dismissing all valid challenges to your 'ideology' as cliché or fake.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:43

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:41

When boys stop sexually assaulting girls at a disproportionate rate, maybe the sexes will be more equal.

Until then my daughters require reasonable safeguarding measures.

I don't care if boys wear skirts, although I was flashed several times at school. I do care if they enter girls safe spaces.

Youre derailing.

I have said several times on this thread i dont agree they should.

What has any of that got to do with the question at hand, which is whether or not it is as socially acceptable for boys to wear 'girls' clothes as it is tje other way round?

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:41

When boys stop sexually assaulting girls at a disproportionate rate, maybe the sexes will be more equal.

Until then my daughters require reasonable safeguarding measures.

I don't care if boys wear skirts, although I was flashed several times at school. I do care if they enter girls safe spaces.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:41

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:39

Im suggesting its still totally socially unacceptable in a way that a girl wearing jeans isnt.

Whose fault is that? Trousers for women became acceptable because women just got on with it and wore them (despite initial disapproval).

If men want to make wearing dresses acceptable for men they just have to do the same.

What if women want to make it acceptable flr men?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:40

Bloody hell.

Ive seen some low tactics in MN on action, but that...

You got that from me saying i dont believe that girls transition in high numbers to escape harassment?

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:39

Im suggesting its still totally socially unacceptable in a way that a girl wearing jeans isnt.

Whose fault is that? Trousers for women became acceptable because women just got on with it and wore them (despite initial disapproval).

If men want to make wearing dresses acceptable for men they just have to do the same.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:39

ExMachinaDeus · 10/05/2022 01:37

Last time I looked, there were not adult men sitting in the classroom. And this is what I am referring directly to. The fact that girls are freer in a school socially than boys.

It really concerns me that you say you are a teacher, but you seem oblivious to the sexual harassment girls put up with from boys at school every.single.day.

And that you really think girls are "freer" than boys in schools. Are you really looking? It makes me start to wonder how safe children are under your care at school, if you don't see what most girls suffer. Or go and browse "Everyone's Invited."

Lets not get personal to detract from tne fact you cannot disagree that boys cannot have movement between gender identity as freely as girls can. Nice tactic.

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:38

I'm sorry my sexual assault at school inconveniences you.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:37

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:36

Maybe teenage girls are sick of being sexually assaulted and believe that identifying otherwise will save them.

I dont believe that. Never have. A cliche, and one that ultimately doesnt help women or men.

ExMachinaDeus · 10/05/2022 01:37

Last time I looked, there were not adult men sitting in the classroom. And this is what I am referring directly to. The fact that girls are freer in a school socially than boys.

It really concerns me that you say you are a teacher, but you seem oblivious to the sexual harassment girls put up with from boys at school every.single.day.

And that you really think girls are "freer" than boys in schools. Are you really looking? It makes me start to wonder how safe children are under your care at school, if you don't see what most girls suffer. Or go and browse "Everyone's Invited."

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:36

Maybe teenage girls are sick of being sexually assaulted and believe that identifying otherwise will save them.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:36

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:35

Why is there always an agenda though?why does everything come back to women being either martyrs or scared of men? Why are we putting that on children?

How does this relate to my post?

Firstly, we would need to admit the fact that men in that category do not get the support they need, and should have.

Which category?

Your sentence about being more comfortable with gentler feminine men. Theres a connotation there.

Boys who are more feminine, wish to break the stereotypes and wear traditionally girls clothes and make up.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:35

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:34

You said girls are more free socially at school than boys. I think sexual harassment makes one extremely unfree.

You knew what i meant.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:35

So maybe, on that basis, the reason that ftm is so high in children compared to mtf is less to do with the cliches of being kind and misogny and more to do with uneven scales in children.

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:35

Why is there always an agenda though?why does everything come back to women being either martyrs or scared of men? Why are we putting that on children?

How does this relate to my post?

Firstly, we would need to admit the fact that men in that category do not get the support they need, and should have.

Which category?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:34

You said girls are more free socially at school than boys. I think sexual harassment makes one extremely unfree.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:34

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:32

As I'm not the one wanting to wear a skirt to school, don't ask me whether they're more convenient.

I assume that the reason the boys you advocate for wish to wear skirts is because it is more convenient, and I am quite prepared to accept that. I wouldn't be picking on them for it.

Show quote history

No....

Im suggesting its still totally socially unacceptable in a way that a girl wearing jeans isnt.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:33

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:29

Oh-kay. Taking a deep breath here.

I'll answer that question for you. First year of secondary school, so 11 years old, walking on the way to school and back, in school uniform. So your school day starts with sexual intimidation from adults.

But does it stop there? Well, the only way it can stop there is if sexually aggressive behaviour is something male people only commit from their 18th birthday onwards.

This certainly didn't use to be the case. Teenage boys pinged bra-straps, asked you if you do anal in front of their mates (in some attempt to impress them), comment on whether sanitary pads and underwear lines were showing, and loads more besides. Worst of all, a newdpaper reported that stats showed that an average of one rape a day was recorded in our nation's schools.

There is, in fact, right now, a pupil-led campaign to expose the culture of sexual harassment in schools, called Everyone's Invited, in which children named and shamed their schools for allowing sexual harassment and abuse.

Show quote history

Not excusing or ignoring that.

But as i said upthread, bringing that in because we cant argue that boys can dress and behave as they like in the ways that girls can , hence mu original point about FTM im children being more common and at an advantage, doesnt actually address the issue.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:32

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:24

..this still avoids thd issue.

What do you think would happen if a boy wore a skirt to school?

Theres a whole bloody film and documentary about a boy wanting to wear a dress to a prom

All of that said, how on earth is a dress or skirt more 'convenient'

Show quote history

As I'm not the one wanting to wear a skirt to school, don't ask me whether they're more convenient.

I assume that the reason the boys you advocate for wish to wear skirts is because it is more convenient, and I am quite prepared to accept that. I wouldn't be picking on them for it.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:31

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:28

And now I realise I've got sucked into discussing how men should sort out other men's behaviour. Why should that be my problem to solve?

Incidentally, as ive always said on these threads ,i dont believe its on a sex to sort out their behaviour. We wouldnt expect that of any other group.

Any societys problem is the problem of the society.

TheLadyDIdGood · 10/05/2022 01:30

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

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