Page 2 | Scottish census shambles

DomesticatedZombie · 2022-04-28T13:44:56+00:00

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/27/snp-abandons-census-deadline-quarter-scots-fail-respond/ 'Extending the window for responding raises worrying questions about data quality,” Lindsay Paterson, professor of education policy at the University of Edinburgh, said. “In normal social surveys, there are strict quality controls on the time given to respond. “This is because people vary in how they respond, especially for opinion questions such as the several identity questions in the census. For example, how people answer the question about gender identity might vary according to whether some controversy about gender identity is in the news. The same is true of national identity and ethnic identity.” He added: “As a social statistician, I would not use census data on identity that had such an arbitrarily varying window of replying.”'

KimikosNightmare · 01/05/2022 10:57

There's no case for independence beyond some air - headed Braveheart nonsense and a delusional but deeply ingrained sense of grievance.

As for being "different" well remote parts of rural Yorkshire are very different from London or Edinburgh and very similar to remote parts of rural Scotland. Edinburgh, Oxford and Bath are peas in a pod. The English census had no difficulty dealing with remote parts of rural Yorkshire with poor digital connectivity. What's the Scottish excuse for failure in this issue?

I honestly question the intelligence of any separatist supporter.

Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 01/05/2022 10:43

As for independence - I'm ambivalent, but if there is a case to be made for it, it needs to be made on the back of solid evidence, not manipulative bullshit in which the SNP actually actively harm the country in order to prove some made-up grievances about rUK.

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Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 01/05/2022 10:42

I think, from the article, they're going to have a 'drive'. Not sure what this entails. Tombola?

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KimikosNightmare · 01/05/2022 10:28

Why does extending the deadline for a month cost anything at all, far less £10 million?

ResisterRex · 01/05/2022 10:17

It's staggering. Even if you do harbour a (not very) secret desire to be utterly severed from the rest of the UK, surely the hill to die on, is not one of junk data that costs millions to be junk and worthless?!

Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 01/05/2022 10:13

Oof. That is frankly embarrassing. Thanks for the link, Rex.

'The first delay from 21 to 22 cost us £21m'

'A £10 million drive to salvage Scotland’s census'

So that's £31fucking million pounds so far for the SNP to implement a failed census. That's an utter disgrace.

Several comments saying that people don't trust the SNP with their data. I wonder if this does come down to a trust issue, largely.

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ResisterRex · 01/05/2022 10:04

More on this in the Times today

Census extension ‘will not succeed’.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d77ffce0-c8c3-11ec-9868-6fd925016a0c?shareToken=6ae6a1b2d641f26ff536e7968aca27f88_

ChateauMargaux · 30/04/2022 14:21

I wonder if social statistician Paterson was a Lynsey rather than a Lindsay whether there would have been a TRA pile on for those words.

Georgeskitchen · 30/04/2022 14:08

That's what happens when wee Jimmy Krankie is voted into government

Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 30/04/2022 14:03

Yes, I hear you, Gaspode.

It's actually quite sad to see what's happened to the great dream of independence. I don't know if it's the SNP's unique problems, or whether the whole project needs overhauling. To be fair, some things seem to work well, I think some aspects of our services and governance have improved over the past ten, twenty years. But there are large, and serious problems with infrastructure that are not being addressed and not going to go away - education, health, roads, etc.

I know money is an issue nationally, but I worry most that so much energy is expended on proving ScotParl are 'better than Westminster', that a lot of time and effort goes into presenting a shiny front, rather than actually dealing with the quotidian grind and tackling issues. I actually find it hard to listen to Nicola Sturgeon now as I just find her so utterly insincere.

I'm so unutterably tired of seeing SNP MPs/MSPs attack Tories. Just shut up and focus on the issues in your own backyard, really.

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 30/04/2022 13:06

I'm apoplectic about it! My parents are in their late 80s and not infrequently need to go the mainland for hospital appointments, and given the demographics there so do lots of other islanders. There are any number of tradespeople booked to come across to the island to work for a day or a half-day. Virtually everything sold on the island has to come over on the ferry, and there are island businesses sending their products away (Arran Aromatics or whatever it's called now, the Distilleries, Arran Brewery, various other food businesses). There are islanders going on holiday, and of course the major source of employment and trade on the island is tourism. All of these people are now unable to take it for granted that the ferry will actually run, and it's having a huge effect on island life and incomes. People are crossing the day before an appointment or a planned trip so as to be sure of getting off the island, and having to find accommodation for the night. Some older people have moved back to the mainland as a consequence. It's not just that the ferry is old and clapped out. When the wind is in the wrong direction at Ardrossan the ferry can't dock and has to either go to another port or it gets cancelled. That should have been tackled a long time ago too. Covid has caused a lot of cancellations too when staff have had to go into isolation, but at least that will (hopefully) resolve fairly soon.

It's a mystery to me how this bunch of clueless chancers keeps getting re-elected. The rushed and inept decision on recommissioning alone should be resulting in a police enquiry.

Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 30/04/2022 12:03

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 29/04/2022 09:38

Interesting. I am Scottish but live in London. I am fairly sure on the census last year I was able to say I am both Scottish and British. Any chance the SNP will lose power any time soon? Asking for family dependent on the Arran ferry. The replacement ferry is 5 years overdue and still a long way from ready. Cost estimated at £100m when commissioned, now £250m. Service in recent months abysmal. Huge scandal around lack of documentation for the signing of the contract. Windows painted onto hulk to make it look finished for NS to get publicity pictures. How do they survive case after case of their woeful lack of competence and standards?

The ferries are an utter fucking national scandal. They've run the current services into the ground, knowing that they are a lifeline for islanders. They've conducted an 'enquiry' (Humza Yousaf) that found the whole siutation was a disaster, and decided to ... do nothing.

They've given the contract for building new ferries to - afair - an Eastern European company, allowing the Clyde yards to miss out on a job that might have saved them from closure.

Fucking farce. Honestly, it makes me quite angry.

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Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 30/04/2022 12:00

Enumerator · 29/04/2022 09:58

The problem has been largely one of understaffing.

In previous paper censuses, enumerator jobs appealed to the recently retired. Jobs were advertised in libraries etc. People who fancied earning a bit extra for a few hours of walking a week snapped the jobs up.

This time round it was primarily online and enumerators were expected to have basic computer literacy. It was advertised as a 25 hour a week job, longer hours than previously. There was a massive, massive shortfall in applications.

The census is being conducted with far, far less people than required. Hence delays in sending out paper copies, delays in visits from enumerators etc etc.

On the doorsteps I'm not getting much of an impression of disengagement. I'm getting lots of people saying they have been "meaning to do it" but "haven't got round to it"

Also a significant proportion of people who say they routinely chuck letters addressed to "The Householder" out as junk mail and haven't actually read any of the letters, don't use the social media it's being advertised on, and seem genuinely unaware of the census.

On the doorsteps I'm not getting much of an impression of disengagement. I'm getting lots of people saying they have been "meaning to do it" but "haven't got round to it"

Given that it's an offense to not do it, you're not going to get very many people admitting to not doing it on purpose.

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KimikosNightmare · 30/04/2022 10:37

Enumerator · 29/04/2022 09:58

The problem has been largely one of understaffing.

In previous paper censuses, enumerator jobs appealed to the recently retired. Jobs were advertised in libraries etc. People who fancied earning a bit extra for a few hours of walking a week snapped the jobs up.

This time round it was primarily online and enumerators were expected to have basic computer literacy. It was advertised as a 25 hour a week job, longer hours than previously. There was a massive, massive shortfall in applications.

The census is being conducted with far, far less people than required. Hence delays in sending out paper copies, delays in visits from enumerators etc etc.

On the doorsteps I'm not getting much of an impression of disengagement. I'm getting lots of people saying they have been "meaning to do it" but "haven't got round to it"

Also a significant proportion of people who say they routinely chuck letters addressed to "The Householder" out as junk mail and haven't actually read any of the letters, don't use the social media it's being advertised on, and seem genuinely unaware of the census.

I didn't realise until last week that I'm supposed to (I think) complete one for a flat I own which was empty on Census day. The tenant had moved out and the new tenant hadn't moved in. I had collected the envelope addressed to " the Householder"

The website is really unclear about this situation and enquiries to the website produced responses which were no less unclear. I've had no specific reply to specific questions- just generic responses.

Enumerator · 30/04/2022 10:06

Also, Family Tree Builder posted:

"Language - census bumf in English only. Probably available in Gaelic too, they love a bit of Gaelic. 🙄But if you speak Polish, Urdu, Punjabi, Spanish, Xhosa - you're on your own pal."

There are explanatory paragraphs with the number of the free language support helpline in 24 languages, including Polish, Urdu, and Punjabi. No Spanish, don't know why, although Italian and Portuguese are covered. No Xhosa either.

I don't know whether the staffing issues have affected the helpline, but they have definitely slowed down dissemination of the language helpline number.

Enumerator · 29/04/2022 10:09

Artichokeleaves · 28/04/2022 15:09

Yup. Whole thing pointless.

So either do it properly, or don't bother at all. This is not the time to be pissing massive amounts of tax payer cash up the wall on what's been turned into a virtue signaling exercise.

I actually think it's because they have attempted to "do it properly" that's been half the problem. Previous census have used paper copies, and asked very little of the enumerators.

This time round, they have tried and failed to recruit "professional" enumerators, moving away from the group who have a few hours on their hands and trying to recruit from people who don't have a minimum of 25 hours a week available.

Enumerator · 29/04/2022 09:58

The problem has been largely one of understaffing.

In previous paper censuses, enumerator jobs appealed to the recently retired. Jobs were advertised in libraries etc. People who fancied earning a bit extra for a few hours of walking a week snapped the jobs up.

This time round it was primarily online and enumerators were expected to have basic computer literacy. It was advertised as a 25 hour a week job, longer hours than previously. There was a massive, massive shortfall in applications.

The census is being conducted with far, far less people than required. Hence delays in sending out paper copies, delays in visits from enumerators etc etc.

On the doorsteps I'm not getting much of an impression of disengagement. I'm getting lots of people saying they have been "meaning to do it" but "haven't got round to it"

Also a significant proportion of people who say they routinely chuck letters addressed to "The Householder" out as junk mail and haven't actually read any of the letters, don't use the social media it's being advertised on, and seem genuinely unaware of the census.

ResisterRex · 29/04/2022 09:54

These are the ONS ethnicity groups for England and Wales in case of interest here:

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/style-guide/ethnic-groups

Enumerator · 29/04/2022 09:48

Changed name.

On the doorsteps I have only been asked once about the gender question. Several people have complained about "too many questions" or "too intrusive" which might include unease about the gender question, but not necessarily.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 29/04/2022 09:38

Interesting. I am Scottish but live in London. I am fairly sure on the census last year I was able to say I am both Scottish and British. Any chance the SNP will lose power any time soon? Asking for family dependent on the Arran ferry. The replacement ferry is 5 years overdue and still a long way from ready. Cost estimated at £100m when commissioned, now £250m. Service in recent months abysmal. Huge scandal around lack of documentation for the signing of the contract. Windows painted onto hulk to make it look finished for NS to get publicity pictures. How do they survive case after case of their woeful lack of competence and standards?

Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 29/04/2022 09:29

Yes, I think a general atmosphere of distrust of the Scottish Government certainly makes one far less inclined to offer the info.

Especially coming after fiascos like the 'sex census' which was supposed to be anonymous but was in fact fairly easy to identify the child who'd filled it in, afair.

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CharityShopChic · 29/04/2022 09:27

I was even asked for my "ethnic group" when giving blood this week. Options were white Scottish or white British.

Is my unionist blood really different from a nationalist's blood? This sort of thing makes people very suspicious of the motives of the Scottish Government and despite their advertising campaign there are a lot of people who are very concerned about what they are going to do with all of this personal data we're asked for.

Original poster

DomesticatedZombie · 29/04/2022 09:20

I suspect when a sizeable chunk of the populace are aware that you can put any old thing in as 'sex' ('however you feel at the time'), that is likely to undermine their confidence in the necessity and or usefulness of the exercise.

Treat people like eejits and they tend to lose interest in being co operative.

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Skyellaskerry · 29/04/2022 08:04

I sent mine in on time and then about about a week later got a chase up letter, I know I'm not the only one, what a complete waste of money all those letters going out so soon after the due date.

Supersee · 29/04/2022 03:05

I haven't filled it in.