Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Student midwives at a Scottish university taught that men can give birth

154 replies

Clymene · 28/04/2022 09:07

Look at this absolute nonsense:

According to the workbook, students were advised: “It is important to note that while most times the birthing person will have female genitalia, you may be caring for a pregnant or birthing person who is transitioning from male to female and may still have external male genitalia.”
https://reduxx.info/exclusive-midwifery-students-taught-how-to-care-for-males-giving-birth/

In a teaching workbook for midwifery students.

I just can't deal with so much stupid.

OP posts:
MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 28/04/2022 13:28

I read that yesterday, so if I'm thinking right, they amended it to say female to male, but kept all references to penis, prostate gland etc? Is this where we are now? If you're a transman giving birth, student midwives having training to call your clearly female organs male ones? Is that what they mean? What, a midwife doing an examination has to say "I'm just going to do a check, you may feel a bit uncomfortable round your prostate gland"!! I'm really struggling to see how this makes any sense whatsoever. And giving birth through a surgically constructed penis? What a load of fucking tosh! And they're teaching this to midwives?? 😮

ThrowawayBerna · 28/04/2022 13:10

drinkingwineoutofamug · 28/04/2022 10:42

Found this on Twitter made me laugh

😂drinkingwineoutofamug

Thanks.
I have saved that off as 'Fluterus'.

RoseLunarPink · 28/04/2022 12:23

Maybe this confusion has come about because people are repeatedly told to be "inclusive" and not just talk about women because "men give birth too". People who give birth are not women but birthing parents, cervix havers etc.

The typical MNer knows this refers to trans men who are actually female. But because people generally understand what men and women are and see that in a traditional way, some people may well take "trans men" to mean men who are trans, i.e. TW. And because we are all being told people can change sex, they take that to mean TW actually can give birth. Even when they still have their penis.

Similar to the issues on menstruation products thread - when this bullshit "information" gets passed on and repeated by people who don't really understand it and know they are strictly NOT allowed to dare to even ask questions, there's a lot of potential for seriously getting the wrong end of the stick. No pun intended.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/04/2022 12:14

There is enormous confusion about this. I'm not surprised that laypeople and non-scientists are ignorant of what bodily changes trans people have, but it's terrifying to think that the HCPs of the future are having nonsense like this taught to them at university level.

As far as I understand it, and I am definitely a layperson and non-scientist, this is the current position.

Anybody can call themselves trans, whether or not they are planning to have/have already had any medical treatment. There is no gatekeeping of any kind unless you want a gender recognition certificate.

Transwomen are male. They may have any of the following, or none.
(a) Electrolysis to get rid of facial and body hair.
(b) Facial feminisation surgery, i.e. cosmetic surgery to change the bone structure of the face.
(c) Shaving of Adam's Apple to make it less visible.
(d) Hormone treatment to suppress testosterone levels and massively boost levels of oestrogen and sometimes progesterone - this will reduce facial hair, increase breast tissue and reduce penis size, but won't grow a female reproductive system, nor will they start having a menstrual cycle. Results in mood changes.
(e) Sexual reassignment surgery - rare (fortunately, as it's major surgery, high risk of post-op infection, and gives poor results). This involves removing the testicles and operating on the penis to make it something like a clitoris. An artificial opening is created in the scrotum using colon tissue. This is called the neovagina and has to be kept open by dilating it daily, as otherwise the body would heal it up. It won't result in the transwoman having a womb or ovaries or being able to become pregnant or having a menstrual cycle.

Transmen are female. They may have any of the following, or none.
(a) Double mastectomy, euphemistically referred to as top surgery.
(b) Hormone treatment, i.e. medication to stop the body producing the normal amounts of progesterone and oestrogen, and to massively boost the amount of testosterone. Results in permanent deepening of the voice, growth of facial hair, mood changes. May lead to vaginal atrophy, urinary problems and increased risk of cancer and heart disease.
(c) Hysterectomy, possibly also with removal of the ovaries. Obviously results in loss of fertility and onset of menopause, which increases risk of heart disease and osteoporosis.
(d) Sexual reassignment surgery, euphemistically known as 'bottom surgery'. Very rare, fortunately, as this is major surgery and results are extremely poor. Involves taking tissue from another part of the body, typically the lower arm, which is left permanently disfigured, and making a crude facsimile of a penis out of it, incorporating the clitoris. It won't ejaculate. Ability to orgasm is likely to be lost.

There are many differences between the sexes which can't be changed. Height, shoulder breadth, hip width, gait, size of hands and feet relative to the rest of the body - all of these are clues to the sex of an adult which we register automatically, just like all other animals with two sexes. Also, the size and composition of muscles is different in each sex, and males have larger hearts and lungs in proportion to the rest of the body, so taken with their greater height they are always going to be stronger than females, even when testosterone levels are reduced.

If I've got this mostly right, maybe I could get a job producing the next workbook. Sounds like I couldn't do any worse.

DomesticatedZombie · 28/04/2022 12:10

Clymene · 28/04/2022 09:07

Look at this absolute nonsense:

According to the workbook, students were advised: “It is important to note that while most times the birthing person will have female genitalia, you may be caring for a pregnant or birthing person who is transitioning from male to female and may still have external male genitalia.”
https://reduxx.info/exclusive-midwifery-students-taught-how-to-care-for-males-giving-birth/

In a teaching workbook for midwifery students.

I just can't deal with so much stupid.

Bwahahahahaa fuckinghahahahahaha!

I mean - argh. But - hahahahahaha!

tabbycatstripy · 28/04/2022 11:56

Looks like David Lammy wrote this one after he re-watched Jurassic Park.

SolasAnla · 28/04/2022 11:29

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/04/2022 09:15

If Elaine Miller and Susan Bewley hadn't been quoted I would have assumed that was a hoax. Extremely worrying. Surely this should be reported to the Royal College of Nursing or whoever monitors training standards for student midwives?

I would go further to say if any HCP was involved in writing or approving the text should be reported to their professional body for professional incompetence.

An organ transplant is not a cosmetic surgery. I believe there has been at least one transplant performed on a woman, there are people doing research on males getting such transplants so its possible (in theory).

If the student did come across a male who had a transplant of both womb and birth canal (or just a womb) and was growing/birthing a baby in the UK its a Mengele level experiment, and the student (or fully qualified midwife) should be reporting to their legal and ethics committee not casually deciding to participating in the experiment.

Midwives should not be trained in such low ethics which allows the health system to carry out experiments on babies. The NHS Trust focus on "natrual birth" when surgical procedure was needed demonstrates a basic failure in ethical standards.

If it details how to manage a prostate it was not written for a woman's body as prostate can not be created in a cosmetic surgery on a female. If it was an actual prostate that would be an organ transplant and "poking" tubes into a organ transplant site may work but may not be the best first option.

If a female had cosmetic surgery they should have looked for specialist advice on post op dangers from scar tissue etc or at basics like will the female equipment work. If it was written for women who suffer from gender dystopia, who had cosmetic surgery and are giving birth it shows a low standard of care when the educational body can't even spend time to explain the correct basic biology and then build on how to give specialist care.

drinkingwineoutofamug · 28/04/2022 10:42

Awaits telling off

drinkingwineoutofamug · 28/04/2022 10:42

Found this on Twitter made me laugh

TheWeeDonkey · 28/04/2022 10:13

eurochick · 28/04/2022 09:50

Giving birth through a penis sounds... messy.

🤢

Blogblogblogblog · 28/04/2022 09:54

This must be a hoax. I imagine doing a ‘sweep’ would be enough contraceptive to most!

eurochick · 28/04/2022 09:50

Giving birth through a penis sounds... messy.

Scorchedterf · 28/04/2022 09:46

I’ve only just woken up to this madness, and this is so outrageous, How did it get like this

SpiderinaWingMirror · 28/04/2022 09:42

Well that's a bit mental. I have a friend who is a transman who gave birth. But clearly that was because they have female genitalia and a womb.
I despair.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 28/04/2022 09:37

WHAT?!

Presumed this would be about female people who identify as men. Bloody hell.

Speechless.

Mandodari · 28/04/2022 09:35

Eh? To quote Monty Python
I'm not oppressing you, Stan -- you haven't got a womb. Where's the fetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?"

MissPollysFitDolly · 28/04/2022 09:32

From the article:

"All references to the handling of a penis, prostate gland, and other male biology remained, but also added the suggestion a female to male transgender person could give birth through a surgically constructed ‘penis.’"

That's the 'corrected' workbook! A workbook for students in a UK university.

Clymene · 28/04/2022 09:31

And even if they were talking about women who has transitioned, they won't have a prostate.

I would love to know the university.

OP posts:
Clymene · 28/04/2022 09:30

MissPollysFitDolly · 28/04/2022 09:26

What could they mean? Obviously can't be MtF but does FtM genital surgery leave the female parts intactConfused?

No it doesn't.

OP posts:
MissPollysFitDolly · 28/04/2022 09:26

What could they mean? Obviously can't be MtF but does FtM genital surgery leave the female parts intactConfused?

DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat · 28/04/2022 09:25

Viviennemary · 28/04/2022 09:19

This is a bit confusing. Surely they mean a woman transitioning from female to male can give birth. But not a man transitioning to female. Or am I confused.

Well someone’s confused, that’s for sure. And this is where we are. The fact that words matter, and have meaning, has been left so far behind that now everything is so confused and confusing you get, presumably, intelligent individuals coming out with this insanity.

watcherintherye · 28/04/2022 09:25

Has a TW ever had a successful complete female reproductive system transplant? Surely this would be earth shattering news and I would have heard about it?

tabbycatstripy · 28/04/2022 09:22

You’d hope this was fake, but I don’t have that much confidence in people who think people in literally change their sex.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/04/2022 09:22

Viviennemary · 28/04/2022 09:19

This is a bit confusing. Surely they mean a woman transitioning from female to male can give birth. But not a man transitioning to female. Or am I confused.

It's worth reading the article to see what has been corrected and what hasn't (that claim has been corrected).

Viviennemary · 28/04/2022 09:21

I just looked up the link. I reckon it's a hoax.