Student midwives at a Scottish university taught that men can give birth

Assuming a natal woman who transitions but retains internal female reproductive organs as well as acquiring external male genitalia does become pregnant

How, though? How do you get the sperm into the internal organs?

Couple of glaring errors in that article. I don't think 'many people who transition have previously given birth', in fact, I can't think of one such person.

I think this bit is bonkers as well:

Assuming a natal woman who transitions but retains internal female reproductive organs as well as acquiring external male genitalia does become pregnant

Unless I've misunderstood!

Re the 10% of true believers/ fanatics being able to influence the majority, it's because they're committed to a single issue while the rest of us sit there thinking, 'Well, they only want this little change and I can see the justification for that so it's okay' or 'Nah, anyone who says they want that must be nuts, because nobody can really want that...' or 'That's junk science, it will never fly, it's obviously biased and inaccurate' or 'It will never happen, I'll ignore it and it will go away'.

Meanwhile the single-issue puritans install themselves on committees, and in trusts and charities, and quietly start flexing their new-found muscle.

And so we saunter on only to find that they really do want it, more than anything else, and we've let ourselves be herded along ('be kind', 'here's your pronoun badge', 'well, our policy states that...' and 'oh, those things just don't happen!') to the point where we have to struggle to return to sanity.

We're there now with this batshittery. In past year a lot more people have woken up and the tide does seem to be turning, but it should never have been allowed - by us the wider population, by our institutions - to have reached this point in the first place.

I have only skim read the thread, so maybe this has been said: aren't student midwives required to keep a log of the number of births they have attended, and presumably the type - vaginal, CS, ventouse/forceps? How many are going to be able to record - penile delivery?

Thanks for share token.

I hope the course members can have a 'truth and reconciliation' session where they address the need to speak up and the importance of it, how to manage it without unnecessary confrontation etc.

There's a comment by Gillian Bowditch in the Times today:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/abff1542-c8be-11ec-9868-6fd925016a0c?shareToken=8df3d61e42e118b82e28053a4695f9c0

Being pregnant and birthing is a female only social experience and in a "male never pregnant" society that event is a social exception not a social norm. It is seen as having no real economic or social value. It has a cost as special laws are need to be introduced. These disadvantage the "male never pregnant" group

I'm stunned at the number of women whose husbands/partners expect them to make 50-50 contributions on MP and expect the women to fund childcare wholly out of their own income when they return to work even when it beggars the women or leaves them with pennies. It reads as if the husband/partner had no wider responsibilities for the children at all (an attitude that is all too common in maintenance disputes).

mrshoho
I have difficulty in understanding the non-binary concept

Imo its when a person recognised there are sex based stereotypes but rather that call it BS they agree the role should remain and that they can create their own personalised stereotype.

What on earth is going on in midwifery these days? Have terms such as chest feeding and birthing people, really replaced breast feeding and expectant mothers? Are they used universally or just if requested?

I think its linked to when the social change driver was to desex women and say they were the same as men. This got women out into the work place. (Great but GI Jane was not packing pain relief and menstrual products, birth control, nappies and a baby in her training gear, was she?)

When it pushed out to areas where sex difference do matter the social standard remains "male never pregnant". So special laws and rules develop to compensate for the "are pregnant" events. These are positive discrimination to level the disadvantage of the event or expectation of an event. In some cases the law actively discriminates against "male never pregnant" social expectations.

But the underlying "male never pregnant" social structure remains.

Most women in the Western world have the abilty to remain "not pregnant" for most of their working lives.
Girls are taught to not get pregnant, to have a career, etc. Partly because that is what is expected when the social standard in a "male never pregnant" society.

Being pregnant and birthing is a female only social experience and in a "male never pregnant" society that event is a social exception not a social norm. It is seen as having no real economic or social value. It has a cost as special laws are need to be introduced. These disadvantage the "male never pregnant" group.

Within that culture desexing pregnancy and birthing to accommodate the event as a male event is seen as being progressive. Its realigning what is a low value event to a male equivelant because now the society has to accommodate "male maybe pregnant". After all if a man can change a nappy whats the problem with changing breastfeeding to human milk feeding. If mum can express milk she can go back to work and back to being "male not pregnant" or she could sell her product in a capitalist society.

Progressive, inclusive, bla bla bla is easier than saying out loud "this is womens work".

The fight women will have is to say I am not a male. I am female. Giving birth is a global female only experience society needs to adjust social standards from "male never pregnant" to "female and may be pregnant" . I am entitled to fully participate in society as a female who may or may not give birth.

Changing language to male centered usage has a short term gain. Mums still are called first by childcare, are expected to arrange work aroung childcare, there are dads who see domestic work as womens only work etc. etc. But the wider conversation needs to be held because its only female who get pregnant and post birth someone (mother, father, wider family, paid minders) needs to raise the baby as it grows to be an adult.

Yup either “allies” or non-binary. All female.

That’s terrifying. 10% fanatical believers is all it takes to influence the majority I remember reading somewhere, it might be here
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110725190044.htm

Students felt scared to speak up, or to question what they were being told.
What happens when those students become midwives and find themselves in a situation where they need to speak up on behalf of their patient, or question those in authority over them but are still scared?

@FromOurHatsToOurFeet

The NHS has introduced a "Freedom to speak up" policy and we have all had to do the e-learning (in my hospital).
I'm not sure I'd put it to the test with certain issues but in theory when the students are working at the hospital they should feel free to speak up and the universities should be training them to do so.

• and why the consequences reach far, far further than women's rights and children's health (although that's obviously a serious enough impact). It also encompasses and threatens to undermine: freedom of thought, belief, expression, advocacy, whistleblowing, questioning of authority, safeguarding (as has been pointed out many times on this site), data integrity, confidence in statistics, confidence in authority, trust, exchange of ideas, academic freedom, etc.

Yes. This ideology actually worries me more for the way it silences, muffles and quashes questions, dissent, debate than just about anything else.

It's why the judge mentioned the Stasi, McCarthyism, etc.

The authoritarianism of gender ideology seems to be baked in. A depressingly successful tactic. 'no debate', indeed.

'non-binary' doesn't really mean much, mrshoho - it just means 'a person who doesn't identify with masculine or feminine stereotypes'. i.e. - most people.

In my experience these terms are sometimes attempted to be imposed from the top down - I've not heard people use them in real life.

I have difficulty in understanding the non-binary concept.

What on earth is going on in midwifery these days? Have terms such as chest feeding and birthing people, really replaced breast feeding and expectant mothers? Are they used universally or just if requested?

with-woman.org - they’re also mentioned in a thread in this board, they are doing an event with Women’s Place in Bristol this month.

Then again, are you aware of With Woman? They are a group of birth workers, mostly midwives, who are women centred and slowly challenging the current narrative. I do believe (hope?) such midwives are the silent majority…

I don't think I have heard of this group! Where can I find them online?

Yup either “allies” or non-binary. All female.

The non-binary concept is in some ways a replacement for what feminism has tried to achieve over the last decades which is to get rid of rigid sex roles in all circumstances when they are not based on anything factual.

The problem with the non-binary concept is, of course, that it is deeply sexist because it assigns the rest of us into rigid binary sex roles and declares that we must be comfortable with those as otherwise we would be non-binary, too.

Yup either “allies” or non-binary. All female.

I would say most are totally baffled/disinterested, and about 10% are hardcore gender ideologists. Those who are gender critical stay pretty quiet.

Are the 10% hard-core gender ideologists women? I cannot get my head around this at all.

I’ve read this with a lot of head scratching, like a lot.

It actually boggles belief.

I think that this is a really valid and very very important point.

Anyone in any job needs to feel confident that if they experience or witness any kind of malpractice, they can speak up. I can’t think of another profession where having this confidence is crucial; it could literally save lives.

The lunatics are running the assylem.

JustAFedUpStudentMidwife solidarity with you, as a midwife myself I don't think I could manage to get through the degree now. I qualified 8 years ago- it was a different world! We were so proud of being "woman centred" (I still am).

I've been considering a Masters, and a part of me would love to transition into midwifery lecturing, but I couldn't handle the atmosphere within academic midwifery at the moment.

What percentage of your cohort would you say are hard core believers in gender ideology vs totally baffled vs disinterested vs gender critical?