Page 6 | Snooker

TeenPlusCat · 2022-04-27T14:21:03+00:00

I've been dipping in and out of the snooker this week, and a bit came up this afternoon about the women's world championship, and the fact that 2 women are now qualified to go on the main tour. Anyway, they mentioned in passing that the first transgender (MtF) snooker player had got to the semi finals (Jamie Hunter). Now obviously there is no obvious physical disadvantage to women playing snooker (except I suspect height and reach will still make a difference), but there is obviously a women's competition for a reason.... A teen boy hanging out playing pool/snooker would be a lot more usual than a teen girl, so at the age Jamie was developing their skills, a girl would be much less likely to have felt welcome?

puffyisgood · 27/04/2022 17:10

JustALittleHelpPlease · 27/04/2022 15:58

None of the usual cited factors have a bearing in the sport, strength, hand size, lung capacity, speed etc are not factors. There are sex categories because it was a "man" sport until women said hang on a minute. They then got fobbed off with their own league. Not because they were different to men but because they weren't men. That simple and basic.

Trying to make this about protecting women is where it starts to sound a bit silly. The correct fight to have here is the inclusion of women as a whole to the same leagues as men - including the sponsorship, coaching opportunities etc that the men get. Trying to fight to keep transwomen out of the women's league is arse about face.

I just noticed this - what on earth is this drivel supposed to mean?

Men's competition already is open to women, most earth-shatteringly obviously of all open to 'trans women', but there are well established reasons why women's-only competition is attractive [not least to trans women].

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 27/04/2022 17:09

IcakethereforeIam · 27/04/2022 17:04

So apart from height, arm length, tits and handsize...I'm going to beat this analogy until it's dead!

I’m enjoying your work on this thread…

IcakethereforeIam · 27/04/2022 17:04

So apart from height, arm length, tits and handsize...I'm going to beat this analogy until it's dead!

puffyisgood · 27/04/2022 17:00

This thread is quite interesting - www.reddit.com/r/snooker/comments/e5ws1e/heights_of_unique_world_champions_since_1980/.

It does appear suggest a reasonably clear advantage of height, hardly on a par with basketball but not nothing either.

DomesticatedZombie · 27/04/2022 16:54

Thnks, Samphire, for a more sciencey explanation than 'my DPs biggern me' .

Finding it a bit baffling that anyone would say all of these issues wouldn't have a HUGE effect on playing prowess.

Original poster

TeenPlusCat · 27/04/2022 16:52

Top male snooker players tend to be a little taller than average, but there's also room at the very top for someone like a John Higgins, who's about 5'8" & rather tubby/physically unimposing.

One of the issues is the 'foot on the floor rule'. Sometimes I see players right on tiptoe so they don't have to use a rest instead. A 5ft2 player would presumably have to use a rest more frequently than a 5ft8 player?
Once you can reach say half way across the width of the table I suspect height matters less.

(And I bet the standard height of a snooker table has been set with the average male height in mind somewhere along the line...)

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DomesticatedZombie · 27/04/2022 16:52

John Higgins' arm movements are not impeded by breasts, I am going to guess.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 27/04/2022 16:49

JustALittleHelpPlease · 27/04/2022 15:58

None of the usual cited factors have a bearing in the sport, strength, hand size, lung capacity, speed etc are not factors. There are sex categories because it was a "man" sport until women said hang on a minute. They then got fobbed off with their own league. Not because they were different to men but because they weren't men. That simple and basic.

Trying to make this about protecting women is where it starts to sound a bit silly. The correct fight to have here is the inclusion of women as a whole to the same leagues as men - including the sponsorship, coaching opportunities etc that the men get. Trying to fight to keep transwomen out of the women's league is arse about face.

May I? I am an exercise physiologist, retired.

Female body: breasts which can cause issues when leaning over the table. And that Q angle, can cause issues with the efficiency of the oft seen one legged lean.

Then height, arm length for reach across balls and table. Hand size for forming a bridge over balls.

And then the whole a man is a man not a woman and any time a man is entered into a female space, anywhere, any type, he is taking the place of a woman and displacing many others.

As for women in the men's game, well, the fact that only the top 2 women players are currently in the open rankings, and few women have made it previously, should give you a clue that it isn't as straight forward as you think.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2022 16:46

I'm tired of these male people constantly taking stuff from women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/04/2022 16:45

So, yeah, I don't at all support allowing 'trans women' to compete for prizes which have been endowed specifically to encourage female participation.

Me neither. And I don't care if it makes me "look like a bigot" or whatever, sex classes are there for a reason, otherwise get rid of them.

puffyisgood · 27/04/2022 16:43

DomesticatedZombie · 27/04/2022 16:34

Yes, you could be right. I will continue to look for more reasons that DP somehow managed to beat me.

His height and arm reach seem to be rather a huge factor, though.

Try playing with a 6 yo child, same issue in reverse, you're far more likely to win. It's better for the ego.

Show quote history

I honestly don't think the physical side of it is that big a deal. Or at least it's not on a par with some of the really laughably egregious recent examples, like Lia Thomas in swimming [the average height for a male olympic swimmer is c 6'3", with physiques uniformly tending towards the herculean] or Laurel Hubbard in weightlifting [the average height for a male superheavyweight olympic lifter is c 6'4", with physiques uniformly tending towards the mountainous].

Top male snooker players tend to be a little taller than average, but there's also room at the very top for someone like a John Higgins, who's about 5'8" & rather tubby/physically unimposing.

DomesticatedZombie · 27/04/2022 16:34

TeenPlusCat · 27/04/2022 16:28

I'm not convinced tracking images at speed comes into it?
You have to work out where to hit the ball and hit it.
Then when everything is at rest, do it again.

Spatial awareness, physics, steady hands, and tactical play.

Yes, you could be right. I will continue to look for more reasons that DP somehow managed to beat me.

His height and arm reach seem to be rather a huge factor, though.

Try playing with a 6 yo child, same issue in reverse, you're far more likely to win. It's better for the ego.

sashagabadon · 27/04/2022 16:31

Height and arm length do make a difference in snooker/ pool. Of course they do. Social factors matter too when it comes to fairness. Snooker halls can be quite intimidating for girls in a way they aren’t for boys. So boys can get more practice in when young. My ds plays pool with his friends without a second though. My dd although older would never just go to the pool hall with her friends. And that’s because she is female and he is male.
So I would agree it is unfair as males have advantage ( and menstruating each month etc is a disadvantage for all women and girls for all sorts of activities generally. It’s just something makes do not have to deal with)

puffyisgood · 27/04/2022 16:29

Agree with other comments, in 'sports' like snooker the value of a women's category has nothing to do with inescapable biological advantages, and lots to do with vastly, vastly different participation rates between the sexes. So it's more akin to a woman's only science or maths prize or scholarship or whatever.

Any teenaged girl who spent the hundreds/thousands of hours in grotty snooker/pool halls that'd be needed to compete with the top men would likelier than not end up linked to more cases of [varying degrees of] sexual harrassment than Jimmy Savile, albeit from a rather different perspective.

So, yeah, I don't at all support allowing 'trans women' to compete for prizes which have been endowed specifically to encourage female participation.

MayorDusty · 27/04/2022 16:29

Putting it crudely tits are a disadvantage, when I played (nowhere near professional, barely pub league) they restricted how low you could get on the table to sight the shot.
You can see the difference in the men's game because at the crucible they must wear a waistcoat (not at other ranking tourneys) and even the top flight players are constantly adjusting and conscious of the hindrance. Having a pair of giant battleships in amongst the pack forces you to play accordingly.

Original poster

TeenPlusCat · 27/04/2022 16:28

I'm not convinced tracking images at speed comes into it?
You have to work out where to hit the ball and hit it.
Then when everything is at rest, do it again.

Spatial awareness, physics, steady hands, and tactical play.

OP posts:

Original poster

TeenPlusCat · 27/04/2022 16:26

IcakethereforeIam · 27/04/2022 16:21

So apart from height and reach...anyone else getting a 'what have the Romans done for us' vibe?

That said, probably one of the sports where the sexes could compete more equally.

I think they probably could, and the main reason they don't is, I suspect (with zero data), that the numbers of women playing snooker at any level is tiny compared with men.

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DomesticatedZombie · 27/04/2022 16:23

I looked into it because I was getting pissed off that DP kept beating me at pool. Which is definitely not because I'm shit at it.

'Females are better at discriminating among colors, researchers say, while males excel at tracking fast-moving objects '

www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/120907-men-women-see-differently-science-health-vision-sex

That's leaving aside the many societal and cultural disadvantages, of course.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-47732213

IcakethereforeIam · 27/04/2022 16:21

So apart from height and reach...anyone else getting a 'what have the Romans done for us' vibe?

That said, probably one of the sports where the sexes could compete more equally.

DomesticatedZombie · 27/04/2022 16:19

Floisme · 27/04/2022 15:39

Snooker really isn’t my thing but, having attempted to play on a full-size table, I am not convinced that height and arm reach are insignificant.

Oh, god yes. Longer arms, taller height, etc, muscularity, all will have a huge difference.

I actually did look into this a while back and it seems males may also have certain advantages wrt tracking images at speed, iirc.

Original poster

TeenPlusCat · 27/04/2022 16:19

Continuing on the darts theme. At uni we had both an annual women's competition as well as an 'open'. This was directly to overcome social barriers which were stopping women from playing and to encourage some participation.

OP posts:

Original poster

TeenPlusCat · 27/04/2022 16:14

EufyProsser · 27/04/2022 15:58

I've wondered the same thing about darts - how much is physical strength/reach, and how much is time spent playing over and over?

I used to play darts at university. I don't think there is a physical strength/reach aspect to it, but again there is very much a social bias. My college was an all female one. When we played other colleges they tended to be very dismissive of us (and tended not to concentrate properly because of it until they realised we were winning).

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AlisonDonut · 27/04/2022 16:13

donquixotedelamancha · 27/04/2022 15:40

But there must be some kind of social disadvantage that the women's competitions are trying to overcome? Otherwise they wouldn't have them?

I think you are assuming cause and effect where non exists. The social disadvantage and the segregated sport have a common cause- sexism. Breaking that barrier down by having women in the 'mens' event is a good thing.

I don't think there is any basis to stop transwomen competing against women in sports where there is no advantage. We want to work towards those sports being mixed.

We need to focus on defending fairness in majority of sports where biology matters or we will look like bigots.

If there is no dis/advantage then why do the women not play against men?

Fenlandia · 27/04/2022 16:11

What's the point of women's events and a women's tour if they let in males though?

I saw the same coverage as you OP and apart from that mention the rest was all making the right noises about widening the appeal of the game, getting girls and women involved etc. I wonder if there'd have been more made of the trans competitor if it hadn't been for Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges recently.

sashagabadon · 27/04/2022 16:06

Height and arm length do make a difference in snooker/ pool. Of course they do. Social factors matter too when it comes to fairness. Snooker halls can be quite intimidating for girls in a way they aren’t for boys. So boys can get more practice in when young. My ds plays pool with his friends without a second though. My dd although older would never just go to the pool hall with her friends. And that’s because she is female and he is male.
So I would agree it is unfair as males have advantage ( and menstruating each month etc is a disadvantage for all women and girls for all sorts of activities generally. It’s just something makes do not have to deal with)