I think we should use the word 'personality' more

@JoodyBlue

Of course, adolescents and young students have some freedom to be androgynous and express their gender identities other than male or female but as adults that freedom is not yet in existence. So today, people are forced to choose to live as a woman or as a man even if they feel like both or neither.

Your response:
“This freedom is something that feminists are agitating for - access to neutral space, freedom to dress as you like, to be attracted to any consenting adult. We don't have to categorise it in terms of gender. I do accept that we are not there yet but this is the real progressive stance.”

Yes, I agree that feminists are fighting for this freedom. There is a lot of common ground when it comes to gender identity and the work to fight suppression of gender identities. Essentially any gender identity that is nonconforming to the persons sex is stigmatised. This is why some feminists, like myself, are transgender inclusive.

There are plenty of critiques of the 5 trait model in psychology (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Critique). But even if it is robust, accurate, reproducible and consistent despite any personal life experience such as health, employment status or religion, so what?

The fact I don't consider myself that agreeable or neurotic doesn't make me less of a woman, or make me a man. That's the great fallacy of gender theory - taking these population-wide theories and stereotypes and applying them to individuals, so that if you don't fit the boxes there's something wrong with you.

I agree that many people seem to explain their gender identity in terms that relate to personality eg I liked ‘girly’ activities and playing with the girls when young so that makes me a girl/woman whereas I would say that just means your personality was the type that society has labelled female. That’s the behavioural component mentioned in the research quoted above. The idea of a cross cultural evolutionary aspect is interesting but couldn’t that just be explained in environmental terms as the oppressed class being socialised to be agreeable to their oppressors and exhibiting neuroticism as a result of oppression?

Personality is obviously a huge area of research in psychology, and although this may offer some additional ways of framing gender identity, personality is quite a strict criteria.

It is generally agreed in psychology that the Big 5 is the most reliable form of measuring personality - there are 5 traits that everyone has and they play out differently for everyone (male or female) . Openness, conscientiousness, neuroticism, extraversion/introversion and agreeableness.

And the research is highly replicated in showing that there are sex differences in personality, cross culturally. So, women are higher in agreeableness (obviously this probably has evolutionary roots in that women need to 'keep the peace' when protecting children) and they are also higher in neuroticism (again, probably something to do with that having a good level of 'worry' tends to protect children better)

I think the general gist is right, but at population levels there is a propensity for certain personality traits in females and males, shown cross-culturally. So the statement "because 'female' isn't a type of personality" is somewhat problematic. Not fully problematic of course, but there annoyingly does seem to be a propensity to be more prone to certain personality characteristics if you are female.

“So today, people are forced to choose to live as a woman or as a man even if they feel like both or neither.”

Damned reality and its evil tervenness!

I fully accept and empathise with the fact that other people have different beliefs about their own bodies and personalities and they can describe themselves how they like. But the movement to enshrine in law and in education and in society, this idea that our personalities are male or female, is not something I can support or participate in.

Beautifully put and pithy - thank you.

Of course, adolescents and young students have some freedom to be androgynous and express their gender identities other than male or female but as adults that freedom is not yet in existence. So today, people are forced to choose to live as a woman or as a man even if they feel like both or neither.

This freedom is something that feminists are agitating for - access to neutral space, freedom to dress as you like, to be attracted to any consenting adult. We don't have to categorise it in terms of gender. I do accept that we are not there yet but this is the real progressive stance.

What does it mean to have a female gender identity

From the book: Barbara M. Newman, Philip R. Newman, in Theories of Adolescent Development, 2020, Chapter 6 Psychosocial Theories.

“Gender identity refers to the set of beliefs, attitudes, and values about oneself as a man or a woman in many areas of social life, including intimate relations, family, work, community, and religion. The process of forming one’s gender identity involves integration and synthesis of three components of gender—its biological, psychological, and social meanings—into a view of oneself as a man or a woman entering the complex social world of adult life. Bussey and Bandura (1999) identified three components of gender: a personal component, including biological features, self-perception, and self-concept; a behavioral component, including roles and activities; and an environmental component, including cultural pressures and expectations, historical norms, social institutions, and specific settings.”

So if the integration and synthesis of the personal, behavioural and environmental components of ones gender identity predominately sum up to a woman, then ones gender identity realistically could be female or male & female or neither male or female but you’ve chosen that living as a woman is the closest option to your gender identity.

The problem with trying to match gender identity to sex is that the first is widely varied and can be fluid and the second, sex, is actually a biological binary and fixed. We don’t have a society that allows for people to do anything but pass as a man or a woman with all the baggage that entails of socially expected behaviours, dress and appearance. Gender identity is suppressed.

Of course, adolescents and young students have some freedom to be androgynous and express their gender identities other than male or female but as adults that freedom is not yet in existence. So today, people are forced to choose to live as a woman or as a man even if they feel like both or neither.

❤ De-lurking to agree 100% with OP

What can you possibly mean? Gender identity is defined in all the standard dictionaries. There are hundreds of scientific papers exploring and reasearching gender identity.

How can gender identity be an innate state of being when there has never been any consensus, either diachronically or synchronically, as to what it even means?

Thanks for this OP, I’ve saved it to use. I did try to say this to an enraptured friend, but I used the term feminine/masculine energy. My argument being I have a mix of both that fluctuates daily, so how can that be used to define a person.
The only conclusion that she was able to come up with was that I must be non-binary!!
So saving this to hopefully help me talk about it more plainly.

we're sliding back into an acceptance that our personalities are either male or female,

But we aren’t. If you want to substitute gender identity with personality, fine, I’ll play along even though I disagree because gender identity is an innate state of being most similar to sexuality and not merely a personality type.

But anyway, your statement is incorrect. Gender identities (what you call personalities) are not either male or female. They can be male, female, both, or neither and this can be fixed or fluid.

the movement to enshrine in law and in education and in society, this idea that our personalities are male or female, is not something I can support or participate in.

There is no such movement in existence. See above.

I like this! Thanks OP.

I love this, I have tried to articulate exactly this too but not nearly so well. I'm going to crib up on your response. ♥️

Good post, OP!

Beautifully put. Thank you.

This is just so good and makes perfect sense. Thank you.

I imagine you're desperate for my approval...no? Well, have it anyway. All these smaller and smaller boxes people want to put themselves, and worse, others into. Far too little for all the labels that have to be stuck on them.

Bumping because this is it's such a great way to explain it. Op can you send it to Glinner or Sex Matters or someone to post on their blog? It needs a wide auidence

A personality doesn't have to be feminine or masculine, just like it doesn't have to be entitled or musical. But those who feel that femininity or masculinity are relevant to their sense of self could self-describe as having a feminine personality etc.

But why would a personality need to be masculine or feminine? I mean sure perhaps somebody could have a very masculine or very feminine personality but the average person in the street probably doesn't. Their personality might be more primarily creative, or sporty, or bookish, or caring. Most people have a mixture of aspects to their personality. Masculinity and femininity don't really need to come into it. Although most people will be influenced by their sex in terms of what life experiences they have had, how they were socialised/encouraged as children etc. But that doesn't make you masculine or feminine. It's just part of growing up male or female in a world with gendered stereotypes.

I prefer 'terven' to 'TERF'. I identify as a terven. You TERFs have no idea how this feels and so you cannot challenge my new identity, because that makes you a tervenphobe and also anti-terven, you horrible bigot.