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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A simple way to explain to DH why he shouldn't* include pronouns on his email signature at work

83 replies

WookeyHole · 19/04/2022 14:19

I really get so confused about the whole gender issue and each time I try and explain myself, I get tied up in knots. I've tried with good friends who've basically said I sound like a transphobe, which isn't my intention. I'm just not keen on women not having their own spaces.

Please can you give me a couple of sentences to explain to DH why I think it's a bad idea to include pronouns and the bigger picture it makes him a part of?

*obviously he's a grown man and can make his own mind up, but I'd like him to consider the other point of view to the Stonewall trans bandwagon he's been fed at work

OP posts:
gogohm · 19/04/2022 17:29

On emails it can be useful if you have an ambiguous name, lots of unisex ones these days ... just sayingGrin

No issues at my work, no such silliness but my email has my title on it (Ms)

JosephineDeBeauharnais · 19/04/2022 16:59

Read the Yogyakarta Principles www.oursplatform.org/resource/the-yogyakarta-principles-plus-10-yp10/ and suggest that he uses these to educate the organisation that requiring or encouraging the use of pronouns such that they become the default can be problematic for people who are struggling with their identity, not ready to come out as trans or cannot for cultural reasons. This is what I do. It makes it impossible for people to accuse you of transphobia.

DomesticatedZombie · 19/04/2022 16:59

FWIW I would steer hugely clear of anyone in a professional capacity that uses pronouns, and so would most friends and family that I've discussed this with.

It signals that you are on one side of an incredibly partisan/toxic/emotive political debate. It's unprofessional. It's sexist.

It is, to use an overused term, hugely 'cringe'.

BootsAndRoots · 19/04/2022 16:52

Pronouns are actually transphobic, because it forces people to out themselves, and if you think about it you only ask someone what gender they are if you're unsure, the request is essentially "there are some people whose gender we don't know and we're asking them to state it in an email signature".

WookeyHole · 19/04/2022 16:43

I would also take a dim view if it wasn't so endemic and normalised. But it's been presented from a one sided view point and anyone questioning it is seen to be the difficult one.

This is why it's so complex, even though it shouldn't be.

OP posts:
EarthSight · 19/04/2022 16:38

@WookeyHole

Thanks, this is really helpful. If I play it out in my mind, I think the likely response would be 'I'm not that bothered about any of this, but what harm is it doing?'.

And that's the crux I need to get to, that it puts others in an uncomfortable position, that it reinforces bias.

Does your husband thinks he's a 'he' because he's biologically male? If so, this is not what pronouns are about so he should think twice before adding it to his bio or emails. It's an ideology based around sterotypes and I take a dim view of middle-ages men who are going along with this. Most of them know perfectly well what a male & female is.
LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 19/04/2022 16:32

It isn't right for him to do because:

  • such a declaration is inappropriate in the work-place (just as declaring your sexuality or your religion in every email would be).
  • it is emphasising something (his sex) which does give him an advantage in the work place. So isn't being fair.
  • it is going along with a system that is unfair to trans people who are not yet out and are not comfortable with asking people to use particular pronouns yet - nor to confirm the obvious ones.
  • it is going along with a system that can cause prejudice and ill-feeling towards those who are gender-critical by exposing them in the work-place (or forcing them to pretend and go against what they believe in.)
Xiaoxiong · 19/04/2022 15:57

I feel that it's a political statement, and that is inappropriate for individuals to make in the workplace.

It's also against Principle 6 of the Yogyakarta Principles, as it might make someone who is not ready to declare their pronouns feel pressured to do so if their entire team has pronouns in their bios they would stand out. (This is a good argument if you are in a workplace that has had Stonewall training.)

MrsDanversBroom · 19/04/2022 15:37

@WookeyHole

Thanks, this is really helpful. If I play it out in my mind, I think the likely response would be 'I'm not that bothered about any of this, but what harm is it doing?'.

And that's the crux I need to get to, that it puts others in an uncomfortable position, that it reinforces bias.

The harm it is doing is assuming that everyone buys the gender ideology bullshit. Many don’t.
ethelredonagoodday · 19/04/2022 15:36

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

I am preplanning my own wording to HR on this, and my current draft is

"Thank you for the invitation to add pronouns to my email signature. I will be declining this request, as I do not feel that my personal beliefs on this matter are relevant in the workplace. There is a broad range of beliefs, political and otherwise, which we are not asked to advertise our stance on, and gender ideology falls under that same umbrella for me. I would be happy to participate in any work based research collating the protected characteristics across the organisation for general company improvement (my understanding is however that gender is not included on this, rather biological sex). Regards"

Really good email. If our very traditional organisation ever goes down this road, I shall take a very similar approach.
MrsDanversBroom · 19/04/2022 15:34

@Sodiit

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted. It's a small thing, takes no effort at all, and for those who feel supported by this I'd say it's well worth it. Maybe you could do an LGBTQ+awareness course?
Maybe you could check the law? HTH
MrsDanversBroom · 19/04/2022 15:33

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

I am preplanning my own wording to HR on this, and my current draft is

"Thank you for the invitation to add pronouns to my email signature. I will be declining this request, as I do not feel that my personal beliefs on this matter are relevant in the workplace. There is a broad range of beliefs, political and otherwise, which we are not asked to advertise our stance on, and gender ideology falls under that same umbrella for me. I would be happy to participate in any work based research collating the protected characteristics across the organisation for general company improvement (my understanding is however that gender is not included on this, rather biological sex). Regards"

Great email.
mathanxiety · 19/04/2022 15:29

Suggest to him that it would be presumptuous on his part to assume anyone gives a rat's ass.

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/04/2022 15:25

@Sodiit

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted. It's a small thing, takes no effort at all, and for those who feel supported by this I'd say it's well worth it. Maybe you could do an LGBTQ+awareness course?
I'd love to know why. Because my experience is that 99% of the pronouns I see on emails/bios match the sex of the person. And the other 1% are they/them. The trans people I work with don't have any in their signatures.

It's like 90% of people putting 'straight' in their bio with a few 'bi' and saying it's supporting gay people. How exactly?

Or people putting 'abled' there. How is that supporting people with disabilities?

parietal · 19/04/2022 15:20

Adding pronouns draws attention towards a feature (your sex / gender) which is entirely irrelevant to the quality of your work. But some people are judged at work if they are seen as female, so drawing attention to this will probably have bad effects. Other people don't want to label themselves as masculine or feminine, or may be uncomfortable with these labels so it is bad for them. In fact, the only people not harmed are - guess who - the men!

Theredjellybean · 19/04/2022 15:15

Because its woke rubbish...

Sorry also not helpful

At my job we got pressured to do this... I have Dr. As my title... When pressed for pronouns I just said "doctor"
And if someone is wanting to say "she".. I'm not the cats mother and they cab say "the doctor"
I now whistle the Dr who tune a lot at work..

WookeyHole · 19/04/2022 15:14

Thanks, this is really helpful. If I play it out in my mind, I think the likely response would be 'I'm not that bothered about any of this, but what harm is it doing?'.

And that's the crux I need to get to, that it puts others in an uncomfortable position, that it reinforces bias.

OP posts:
BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 19/04/2022 15:14

I am preplanning my own wording to HR on this, and my current draft is

"Thank you for the invitation to add pronouns to my email signature. I will be declining this request, as I do not feel that my personal beliefs on this matter are relevant in the workplace. There is a broad range of beliefs, political and otherwise, which we are not asked to advertise our stance on, and gender ideology falls under that same umbrella for me. I would be happy to participate in any work based research collating the protected characteristics across the organisation for general company improvement (my understanding is however that gender is not included on this, rather biological sex). Regards"

HirplesWithHaggis · 19/04/2022 15:11

The "kind" way is to point out that some colleagues may be trans but not yet ready to "come out" at work, so forcing pronoun use would be difficult for them.

Can't be accused of transphobia then.

Orangenet · 19/04/2022 15:09

@Sodiit

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted. It's a small thing, takes no effort at all, and for those who feel supported by this I'd say it's well worth it. Maybe you could do an LGBTQ+awareness course?
What about the people who don’t feel supported? Eg a man who isn’t out at work as trans and is forced to confront the gender that has been enforced upon him since birth when he believes he is a woman?

A woman who wants to be a man but can’t due to an unsupportive family?

A man who is unsure of his identity and doesn’t want to be forced to decide?

A woman who transed when they were 18 and is now 40 and doesn’t want to be confronted with pronouns and memories every time they send an email?

moofolk · 19/04/2022 15:07

There are so many, many reasons to not put pronouns in your email signature / bio etc.

One that is often not talked about is how women are treated much worse than men across the board, and that advertising your sex is damaging to women, and men who do it are cementing their privilege.

Also I think of my mum saying 'who's 'she', the cat's mother?', when 'he', especially when capitalised as 'He' literally means 'God'.

So assuming that your husband's intentions are to be more inclusive, tell him that it's actually really detrimental for his female colleagues for him to advertise his maleness.

Sodiit · 19/04/2022 15:05

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted. It's a small thing, takes no effort at all, and for those who feel supported by this I'd say it's well worth it.
Maybe you could do an LGBTQ+awareness course?

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/04/2022 15:04

Would he put his sexuality, disability/ability or similar in his email signature No? Why not?

saggyhairyass · 19/04/2022 15:02

"Do you want to come across as a knob?"

When I see anyone putting pronouns in their email signature I think, Knob.

Sorry, not helpful.

bellinisurge · 19/04/2022 14:53

Don't believe in gender ideology. Same as I don't believe in astrology. I'm entitled to hold that belief.
The purpose of gender ideology is to diminish women's control over their boundaries.

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