A simple way to explain to DH why he shouldn't* include pronouns on his email signature at work

What I don’t understand is why we have to do the slash thing. Like isn’t “she” enough by itself? Why is it she/her (or sometimes she/her/hers)? What else would be accompanying she? I’m not talking here about people who have multiple pronouns like “she/they,” I just don’t understand why the required format is “he/his.” I think it reveals how performative the whole thing is, like we need a grammar lesson in declension.

My sister works in a field with vulnerable clients and they make everyone announce their pronouns in client meetings etc., and she said everyone gets really confused and upset. The professional middle class people in the meeting have to do a whole thing where you introduce your pronouns, describe yourself (even though there are no visually impaired people in the meeting) and then they ask the client to do the same. And the man who’s homeless, dealing with serious mental breakdown etc. will be like “of course I’m a fucking man, what are you saying” when they ask for pronouns and then the middle class professional types get all huffy and lecture them on not being transphobic and ableist when they’re like “I can see you’re wearing a red sweater, why are you telling me.” In other words, this stuff doesn’t actually help people, it’s just signalling.

I'd love to know why. Because my experience is that 99% of the pronouns I see on emails/bios match the sex of the person. And the other 1% are they/them. The trans people I work with don't have any in their signatures.

It's like 90% of people putting 'straight' in their bio with a few 'bi' and saying it's supporting gay people. How exactly?

Or people putting 'abled' there. How is that supporting people with disabilities?

This has always been my point - how on earth seeing that pronouns clearly match the sex of 99% of the people helps anyone feel more supported?!
I use the same comparison with straight/gay signatures.

I'm not that bothered about any of this, but what harm is it doing?'.

Male privilege in action.

I won’t use pronouns because it’s implementing Self ID. Self ID removes a women’s right to say no to inappropriate male behaviour and is illegal in the UK.

If invited to use my “preferred pronouns” at work I will say “don’t be so bloody ridiculous”

Perhaps spending less time twatting about with pronouns and more time actually working might gee up productivity

People with GR certs are what 6.5k (I think I read that recently) in this country? So it’s really a T& (god help me I hate the word) Q awareness course you are suggesting. Why?

The easiest way is to say that your are aware that it is a highly political statement to take any side on this issue, and you would rather not.

[quote CallMeDaddy58]@DomesticatedZombie On certain occasions “have you emailed Barry” would be absolutely fine. However in a protracted conversation it sounds insane.

“Have you emailed Barry yet? Barry is quite keen to receive that information. I was talking to Barry about it this morning and Barry reiterated the importance of receiving it asap”.

Clearly using he/him after the initial “Barry” makes much more sense.[/quote]
'insane' - nice ableism you have there.

I think anyone listing their pronouns looks ridiculous. So how do we move forward from this?

I don't think it serves women to announce their sex in a work context. The gender pay gap still exists (and in fact is huge at the company I work for).

[quote CallMeDaddy58]@MrsTerryPratchett That clearly makes sense for your line of work but doesn’t for most.

You also conveniently glossed over the fact that I also mentioned sexuality and race, which other PPs put in the same category as gender. Acknowledging someone’s limitations because of health issues makes sense of course. They’re sexuality though?[/quote]
I didn't 'conveniently' leave it out. Nice passive aggression there BTW. I didn't mention it in my PP so I didn't mention it in my reply.

I wonder if you have a title... So if I was Lady redjellybean... And I transitioned.. Or felt male... Could I just start using Lord redjellybean instead?

@Theredjellybean "At my job we got pressured to do this... I have Dr. As my title... When pressed for pronouns I just said "doctor"
And if someone is wanting to say "she".. I'm not the cats mother and they cab say "the doctor""

Completely agree with this, I'm a Prof, I've therefore lucked out in having a title that means I'm not discriminated against because nobody has any idea about my gender unless they've met me.

There are a few examples on the internet of people with a typical female name sending company emails and having a hard time, only to then adopt a male name and suddenly people treat them better.

It's a bit like when people say "is it miss or mrs", and I reply, "it's professor", why do I need to be put into a category of whether I am married or not, how's that's even remotely relevant to whatever service they're providing me with when a male is mr no matter what.

But to answer the original question, I find putting pronouns in emails odd, I have a friend who has transitioned, I don't think they care at all about me announcing my pronouns to the world, to me it's taking away what they've been through and trying to put the emphasis on myself. I don't need to refer to colleagues with a pronoun because everyone has a name which I use to refer to them.

My work have encouraged the use of it but not mandated it. If they do I will be telling them they can just refer to me as my name, because being a male/female/non binary has no place in a working environment. We're there to do a job and do it well.
Maybe they could focus on preventing sexism instead by ensuring everyone is paid the same and treated equally?

*having said that though I am aware that I am lucky to have an employer that does these things so I am probably a bit blinded.

At the very least you must see it’s a political statement on a very emotive topic, and not a benign way to make people feel included?

@MrsTerryPratchett That clearly makes sense for your line of work but doesn’t for most.

You also conveniently glossed over the fact that I also mentioned sexuality and race, which other PPs put in the same category as gender. Acknowledging someone’s limitations because of health issues makes sense of course. They’re sexuality though?

@DomesticatedZombie On certain occasions “have you emailed Barry” would be absolutely fine. However in a protracted conversation it sounds insane.

“Have you emailed Barry yet? Barry is quite keen to receive that information. I was talking to Barry about it this morning and Barry reiterated the importance of receiving it asap”.

Clearly using he/him after the initial “Barry” makes much more sense.

if you want to make this about something other than transgender identities: there is good evidence that reminding people from groups that are traditionally associated/stereotyped with poorer performance of their membership of that group actually decreases their performance for example: journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-9280.00111
where Asian American women performed better on a maths test when asked about race before the test (building on the stereotype that asians are good at maths) and less well when asked about sex before the test (building from the stereotype that women are less good at maths than men) - and of course all the myriad of studies that have shown women will be judged more harshly than men for the same resume/CV/essay etc: here's one: link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018839203698

As such including pronouns actually increases his male privilege and decreases the equality of women around him.

I write as someone with a non-gendered name, the email responses I get that assume I am male are very different to those that assume I'm female. No way would I give that up voluntarily.

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted. It's a small thing, takes no effort at all, and for those who feel supported by this I'd say it's well worth it
Maybe you could do an LGBTQ+awareness course?

Maybe you might do a course about brainwashing and compelled speech? Perhaps read some Vaclav Havel, 1978 who has some prescient observations about mantras and the unthinking adoption of an ideology and the true cost of the absolution that it confers.

In an era when metaphysical and existential certainties are in a state of crisis, when people are being uprooted and alienated and are losing their sense of what this world means, this ideology inevitably has a certain hypnotic charm. To wandering humankind it offers an immediately available home: all one has to do is accept it, and suddenly everything becomes clear once more, life takes on new meaning, and all mysteries, unanswered questions, anxiety, and loneliness vanish. Of course, one pays dearly for this low-rent home: the price is abdication of one’ s own reason, conscience, and responsibility, for an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority.

hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

With someone's pronouns, 99% of people are fine with sex-based or I use their name or 'they' if I don't. No accommodations required.

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted. It's a small thing, takes no effort at all, and for those who feel supported by this I'd say it's well worth it
Maybe you could do an LGBTQ+awareness course?

I was the subject of some nasty, nasty (probably) homophobic bullying many years ago that culminated in a violent attack against me. The perpetrators seemed fixated on the fact that is wasn’t a ‘real girl‘ because I look butch AF. As a result i get a bit twitchy when people demand I tell them if I’m a he or a she. Because last time it really didn’t end well for me.

You don't need to know someone's sex to say anything about them

You can say he/she or they

In most case you do know, because you know them or their first name is sexed

Sometimes you don't know - if it matters then the person in question is at liberty to make it clear - but sometimes you don't know and the person in question is in no rush to let you know

Suggesting that you need to say suggests that you think they are not sex based which is buying into an ideology that many don't

It's like forcing people to say prayers before lunch

Twaddle!! I dont believe in gender identify and I’m certainly not going to collude in the utter fiction that men can become women.

This thread is absolutely insane. Comparing gender to sexuality or disability is utterly absurd.

When taking to someone/ about someone you do not need to know their sexuality or any disabilities they might have.

However people do need to know whether to write “have you emailed him/her about x yet?” You don’t say have you emailed “straight white disabled Barry” yet?

People are really clutching at straws with that argument.