Most Britons want conversion therapy banned, including that aimed at transgender people

‘It might be terribly cynical of me, but I have a sneaking suspicion that** “conversion practices” here [almost always] = “anything other than instant & absolute affirmation”. Certainly the way the survey was designed means respondents were using their own definitions - & we all know about how “literal violence” works, for example hmm’

Yes. They included verbal bullying and homelessness. Those things are negative, but they are in no way “therapy”.

Galop use the following description:

‘ So-called conversion therapy can take lots of forms. This can include verbal, psychological, physical, and sexual abuse. It might look like being prayed over or exorcised, being made to eat or drink something to ‘cleanse’ or ‘purify’ you, or it might look like someone controlling you to limit your movement or contact with others. It could come from a therapist, community leader, or family member who wants to change your identity. It might include being threatened with or experiencing a forced marriage or sexual assault to ‘correct’ you. It might happen in your own home, someone else’s home, or in a community, religious, or therapeutic space.’

So here, we see things I would count as incredibly serious examples of “conversion therapy” (exorcism!) alongside someone trying to control your contact with others.

The latter sounds bad, sure. But bear with me. The proposed ban was aimed at under-18s. It’s (often) a parent’s job to limit their child’s contact with others. To take their phone off them. To stop them talking to adults online who call themselves the child’s “chosen family”. In other words, people grooming their kids.

It includes things that are blatantly already illegal: forced marriage, sexual assault, force feeding someone.

So we end up in a situation where it’s obvious that the ‘targets’ of this ban are:

• things that are illegal already
• things that shouldn’t be illegal

End.

"Conversion therapy to me is a bullying, brow beating treatment of gay men, a member of the Catholic church or a Muslim, not to be gay."

Exactly. Which is why I'm dismayed that the numbers are actually lower than 100% here.

Conversion therapy to me is a bullying, brow beating treatment of gay men, a member of the Catholic church or a Muslim, not to be gay.

I'd like to see figures for the number of others being forcibly conversed - I suspect it is very small, and though significant to any affected, too small and varied to make generalised rules about.

Statistics are a beautiful thing.

Stonewall, for example, are very keen we all know Trans people are nearly twice as likely to be targeted by conversion practices - but make no mention of what they are including under the “conversion practices” umbrella. I assume the stats they are referring to are that 2% of gay and lesbian respondents said they [had] undergone conversion therapy, with 5% reporting they had been offered it. In comparison, 4% of transgender respondents said they had received it, and 8% said they had been offered it.*

It might be terribly cynical of me, but I have a sneaking suspicion that** “conversion practices” here [almost always] = “anything other than instant & absolute affirmation”. Certainly the way the survey was designed means respondents were using their own definitions - & we all know about how “literal violence” works, for example hmm

It also seems hugely counter-intuitive that more trans people would be offered &/or receive conversion therapy when transitioning is considered an acceptable “cure” for homosexuality by multiple demographics who utilise LGB conversion therapy hmm

There are some pretty big issues with the data - or rather, lack thereof - on the prevalence of conversion therapy in the UK. Including, crucially, the fact nobody asked if people were being offered conversion therapy for their gender identity or their sexual orientation. So it’s - genuinely, seriously - entirely possible that nobody has ever been offered trans conversion therapy in the UK at all; & it’s simply the case the higher visibility (as it were) of trans people has made them obvious targets for LGB conversion therapy, hence the way the stats skew.

The Bill as it stood was inherently contradictory: the affirmation-only approach IS conversion therapy for some people. I’m not sure which option is more worrying: that the people protesting cannot see/understand this; that they think homosexual people (including children) permanently changing their bodies as a result of affirmation-only therapy functioning as conversion therapy is totally acceptable collateral damage; or that they are simply ignorant of the facts of the matter, dancing about like little puppets as Stonewall & social media [influencers] pull the strings.

• Data from 2017 National LGBT Survey. ** Where the T is concerned.

I had a suspicion this would come up - I had an 'invitation' to take part in that poll, and it was a single or two question job with absolutely no definitions or depth.
Of course most people would want to ban 'cinversion practices', but I doubt most people will have read the content and wording of the draft bill that was available during the consultation period.
It's an absolute crock of a 'survey'.

‘ Slightly tangential but all the language around ‘affirmation’ is difficult too - that’s not what any therapy should be, therapy is hard under most circumstances and the job of the therapist is not to avoid challenging or asking difficult questions if their client/patient. Only in the transgender conversation do we see the ‘everything must be affirmative’ ‘#nodebate’ ‘literal violence’ demands.’

Trans activists will assert that ‘exploratory therapy’ is fine as long as the one thing it doesn’t explore is the basis for the dysphoria.

Now my position is that no adult has to go to therapy. It’s also my position that they can guide their therapist on what they want to explore and not explore - ie even if the therapist feels the root of the problem is (say) internalised homophobia, nobody can force the subject of therapy to discuss that.

But they mustn’t be able to direct the therapist towards ‘affirmation’ either. That could be harmful.

So adults have the right to walk away from a therapist who doesn’t agree with their values.

With children the situation is far more complicated. Children can’t transition. They are incredibly vulnerable to peer pressure and to forms of social contagion. If they approach a therapist demanding to be ‘affirmed’ in a new identity, that could not only be harmful, but grossly negligent.

So I believe children should be left out of the ban.

Whereas for trans activists, who know that coercive therapies for adults are illegal already, forcing an ‘affirmative’ approach to children’s interactions with medical professionals and psychologists was the whole purpose of the ban.

No wonder they have no interest in it when you take confused children out.

It's either worrying that the figures are so low given the blunt term "conversion therapy" (which I would hope any rational person is against?) - or it's an amazing sign that more and more people understand that those like the OP are using the term in place of actual "therapy", and therefore think the idea of banning it is mad. Unfortunately I'm not too sure it's the latter.

Half the examples given by Nancy Kelley, Little OJ and others are examples of (understandable) family conflict surrounding transition. They’re things like “mum doesn’t agree with 13 year old that they are the opposite sex”. Or parents of adult transitioned ask them to move out.

And they can piss off with all of that.

I replied to the consultation and in principle I agreed that coercive therapy to change what a person regards as their “gender identity” should be illegal. I also pointed out that it already is illegal.

Now can someone define what it is trans activists are trying to make illegal? What definitions are to be used of “transgender” and “conversion therapy”?

If you search Twitter for the terms “exploratory therapy” then the debate becomes much clearer.

Within only those who seek a ban on conversion therapy, you will see roughly half saying “of course exploratory therapy is fine” and the other half saying “exploratory therapy is gender critical people trying to sneak in conversion therapy under a new name”.

Since torture is already illegal, what was the purpose of using such charged and emotive language, I wonder.

There are quite a lot of people who think conversion therapy means things like making people watch porn while they get electrical shocks. So it is not surprising they think that should be banned.

Though actually 65% is not all that high which suggests that a fair number know that is not what is involved in these kinds of bills. As I don't think 45% think porn and electric shocks are ok.

A definition of 'gender identity' might be a good place to start
Gender is a social construct, so what exactly is a gender identity?
I've not got one, I've got a sex which is the basis for my oppression in the sex hierarchy which is enforced by gender stereotypes, which I've never conformed to.
I think it's fairly obvious to anyone who's taken more than a passing interest in this issue, that 'gender confirmation' is actually transing the gay away in many cases.

And what do you think about the question OP?

Specifically what do you think conversion therapy covers in the context of gender from that question ?

Do you think it adequately covers the reality being pushed for by lobby groups?

This is the question in the survey:

"Do you think 'Conversion Therapy', where people seek to change someone's [sexual orientation / gender identity] should or should not be banned?"

But that is NOT what the current debate is about. Nobody seeks to change someone's gender identity; rather the demand is a) that possible other reasons for feelings of gender dysphoria should also be addressed (such as childhood sexual assault, other forms of trauma) because many detransitioners say that the real reason was in those and made them feel that their gender was wrong when it was not,

and b) mental health problems unrelated to gender dysphoria or gender questioning should also be addressed. Some on the other side seem to argue that this should not be happening.

Obviously if lesbian or gay, I think these children should likewise not be 'converted' either.

No, I'd really like to see more support for young people to appreciate what they are (female or male) and encouragement to follow their interests. Boys can do ballet and girls physics, for example.

Those who do not conform to stereotypes should not be told they are wrong and need their bodies and names to be converted.

All the political parties are on agreement that conversion therapy should be banned, OP. The only disagreement is about how broadly the legislation should be drawn to avoid impinging on treatment of gender dysphoria.

The latter puffy

We don’t really like bible wielding madman and torture in the uk….as a whole obviously, no idea what some individuals think is ok

I'm completely in the dark on this one. The trans lobby always characterises this therapy as electrical shocks administered by a Bible-wielding madman. At the other extreme I keep hearing that it's more along the lines of making sure confused kids at least talk the options through before leaping straight to surgical and/or chemical neutering. what's the truth of it?

I think 'therapy that isn't affirmative' is rather a stretch of the word 'torture'

Well yes…

But people don’t know that when she says torture she mean people talking it over with a qualified therapist

I think 'therapy that isn't affirmative' is rather a stretch of the word 'torture'.

Conversion therapy should be banned.

What people dont understand is that the particular piece of legislation in question was very poorly written. Had it been passed it would have meant that therapists could be charged for trying to explore a child's gender identity rather than immediately affirm that they are correct in thinking they were born in the wrong body.

If they re-write the legislation so that actual conversion therapy is banned but children can still discuss openly their feelings and explore their identity with trained professionals then there won't be an issue.