Girlguiding dilemma

Same situation here OP.

DD is not going to guides. We will find another activity. Weirdly, when I was honest on a WhatsApp group about my concerns another mum said she felt the same. Then another. So there you go. You won’t be alone.

I'm a GG leader. Like many of us I totally disagree with the way that we are supposed to ignore bio sex. However the program doesn't actually include anything about gender (ignoring one activity about challenging gender perception which is rubbish so we just wouldn't use).
I think in reality we are more likely to get girls identifying as NB than trans girls and it's great that we can keep them in a female sex environment while they work through the complexity of puberty where many many girls feel uncomfortable.
Have thought how I would handle a trans girl. My risk assessment would make the loos one in at a time for all to have respect and privacy. On a residential I would only run with single sex sleeping. This is actually allowed by out rules as we have to consider all young people. The trans girl and anyone else not comfortable with group washing etc would be allowed to use the disabled facility (which isn't taking it from disabled users as we have our own residential areas) to maintain privacy as we wouldn't want the young person to be made uncomfortable that 'she' was different.
At the end of the day we are here to support young people in what is an increasingly tricky world.

I'm afraid after the debacle of their safeguarding with the interesting leader phographing themselves with guns and plastering it all over social media with a 'so what'/'bring your whole self to work' extravaganza, I would not let a child I was responsible for anywhere near that organisation. And that's before I had to worry about what political propaganda might be fed behind my back, or whether safeguarding process was carefully not looking at uncomfortable facts and prioritising TQ+ adult choices over female child needs. That is not to say I blame the women on the ground trying to run the units in the face of all this batshit, but trying to be nice and fair and consider all the sides just basically enables the rot to keep growing.

I'd be finding another club or activity for that night to make GG incompatible. And if I had to I would explain to dd that I have to make decisions in her best interests and this is one she will be able to understand when she's older, but right now the answer is no.

I've never come across any Girl Guiding group that has had anybody but women and girls there. Whatever their stance on gender, do you honestly think this is so common that your daughter would come across it, let alone be at risk from it?!

I wouldn't give a second thought to letting my daughter join if she wanted to.

Dd is a Brownie and absolutely loves it. I'm happy for her to stay going, but she won't ever go on any pack holidays because of the lack of safeguarding. That's where I've put my red line.

It really saddens me the people ignoring the issue because their kids enjoy it.

Safeguarding should be first and foremost for every parent. Guides have shown that anyone raising an issue is removed. Nothing excuses that and by continuing to support an organisation that does this you are complicit in their grooming.

I'm a scouter and have posed about scouts being just as captured as guides the difference is everyone knows we are mixed sex.

What i would say is the aside from the feminist issue I firmly believe that it is healthier for kids to have more than one friendship group. I actively encourage you to find another group where your child can make other friends.
Doing the same things with the same people all the time is limiting and as the girls grow and they change, the inevitable fall outs are much tougher when they can't escape those people because they are in their out of school life as well.

Local to me a scouts district has acquired an ex guide campsite. I went to visit and was immediately struck by the fact that all the buildings have one single large room as a dorm. Very few separate rooms, maybe one leaders sleepover room.
With my scout hat on I was thinking that basically that means right now they aren't fit for mixed sex use. If I take my beavers away they would all have to share- boys and girls. The young leaders(14-18) would have to sleep in tents outside etc etc logistically using guiding spaces for mixed sex just doesn't work within safeguarding.
Also there were no boys and girls toilets.
Beaver age mixed sex sleeping is less problematic that in the older sections.
I would never use those buildings with my explorers(14-18).
Scout sites with buildings generally have multiple rooms so there is plenty of options for all groups.

My 5 year old goes to Rainbows. They've never had anything like this discussed. They did have a bit of a chat about gender stereotypes on International Women's Day but that was more asking them what they thought about certain statements like "Girls don't play football" and probably lasted a maximum of 15 minutes.

The rest of the time they're doing crafts, playing games and stuff.

Rainbows? They barely sit still long enough to put the glitter glue on their Christmas snowflake, they're not going to be sitting around for a discussion on gender.

I would let her go. The leaders won't be pushing this stuff at Rainbows or even Brownies. Deal with any issues as they arise.

A lot of Girlguiding Units will not run Programme activities on GenderWoo. Especially at Rainbow/Brownie age.

Lots of Girlguiding Volunteers are sticking it out for the benefit of the girls & young women they work with. They can’t voice their dissent because their Membership will be Permanently Withdrawn.

HQ’s ideologues are doing a stellar job of completely destroying over 100 years of incredible work supporting girls & young women - easier to hyperfocus on this than actually tackle the institutional ableism, racism & discrimination directed towards [some] people of faith [more than others]. Girlguiding won’t even investigate the extent of the problem much less try to address it - because they did an apology a couple of years ago & we all know that means that i. they’re entitled to forgiveness & a clean slate & ii. said clean slate absolutely has NOT got dirty since

Trying to be a vague as I can but it's the group for the youngest ones, as it's all on the GG website

So why don't you just say Rainbows then?

The fundamental difference would be that GG removed leaders who wanted to have safeguarding policy based on a mixed sex organisation.

Any childrens organisation which removes people for speaking about safeguarding is sending a very clear mesaage about how they have weak CSA prevention policies.

Scouts have gone through a process of recognising that people used the organisation to groom and abuse children.

At the top levels they will be more reactive to concerns and imo more open to criticism.

More importantly they are not pretending that they remain a single sex organisation.

www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/inclusion-and-diversity/including-everyone/lgbtplus/transgender-and-gender-identity/supporting-trans-young-people/

Scouts are open about the possibility of having mixed sex sleeping arrangements and the need to provide a range of alternatives to meet the needs of the members.

I note it politely ignores a female going topless for swimming just deals with blinders.

But at least they have people doing the work to include all the children in a safeguarding framework.

And if there are any residentials, that's when you make it very clear that you expect an assurance that the Guides will adhere to the guidance from the EHRC - ie no biological males of any age to be sharing sleeping, washing or toileting accommodation. Doesn't stop them being present - but preserves the girls rights to privacy, safety and dignity.

FYI, If Guide Leaders do this, they will be asked to resign as it's against Guiding's policy.

I feel very uncomfortable about some of the ideas re sexuality ,gender etc that may be detrimental to the safety of my 13year old daughter , however there has been nothing whatsoever so far during her membership of guides that has caused me any concern.
I know they are under pressure to adhere to inclusivity laws but it seems to me that the majority of groups pay little attention to 'educating' girls and the main point of their weekly meetings are social , crafting , cooking , quite refreshingly simple things in an increasingly pressured society.
My child has been through rainbows ,brownies and now coming to the end of guides , her leader is a main organiser for the area we live in and not once have i felt uncomfortable with any plans , activities etc they have done.
I get the impression rightly or wrongly that guide hqs are told what they want to hear by local groups and if someone with a pro noun / identity different to the majority should join they would cross that bridge as and when.
I know this may not be clear enough for someone thinking about joining guides , i can only speak as i find , but where i live this experience is the same for some of my daughters school friends who are in different guides groups in our local area.

yes, I think there's a danger of coming across too oppositional if you refuse to let her go based on what you fear MIGHT happen, as others have said, its likely nothing will happen or be said.

If it was a big group and in - say - Brighton - I might have more concerns, and I would be especially careful if residentials were on the cards.

However, I think it's OK to let her go and stick to being interested/alert to what the content is. And then treat it as so many non-reigious people have to treat a lot of schools stuff. 'Miss X said that? really? are you sure she didn't say-"some people believe that" ? No? ahahaha, well, as you know, it's not what we believe, but everyone's different' etc etc etc

My DD goes to guides. It's been extremely good for her mental well-being and that far outweighs my own disagreement in principle with the GG stance on trans and gender ID.

As PP mentioned, the local unit is very unlikely to have any air time given to the subject. My DDs unit is small and the leaders very much run it based on what the girls want to do. There's a fair bit of face masks and pampering which DD isn't into but she enjoys wearing a onesie and chilling at these sessions. They also do lots of crafting which she loves, some cooking, outdoor stuff. The friends she's made there are important to her. Shes autistic and struggles a bit socially but at guides she feels more able to be herself than at school. Probably because the so called cool girls don't do guides so the ones that are there are more on her wave length.

So I wouldn't write it off if it's a place for your DD to be with her friends.

I find these decisions difficult too. Realistically, it may never be an issue. My daughter did GG for a while until we moved away from her unit - the leaders who were long time guiders ignored a lot of the current stuff even around badges and such because most of it was such utter crap (I'm not in the UK so I don't know how it compares to what you guys have.) I wasn't overly worried about them bringing up things like pronouns.

On the other hand it's come up in several other groups she belongs to where it was really totally irrelevant to what they did, and in the end we eventually left those activities because they felt like they were not a great environment for a young teen having issues around her body.

Do you mean Brownies, by 'a group under the GG umbrella '? If so, its probably not outing to say Brownies.

In the unlikely scenario that there is a trans kid in her Brownies, trust me you will know. The other parents will tell you. If that happens, then you can decide whether or not you want her to do camps or other residential trips.

The HQ end of GG is captured, but at grassroots level, most leaders are not.

I am very torn, as I am GC and have followed the GG news and know what’s been going on with them.

But I understand the decision about wanting your DD to join in with what her friends are doing.

I have no idea about what your life is like and how busy you are, but could you reframe this, that this is an opportunity to combat gender woo with your DD, her friends and the mums.

I second the idea to personally check out the local group leaders. You say you don’t want to confront the other mothers and I don’t think you necessarily have to. Perhaps just inform them of facts that you think will matter to them.?

Letting your DD join GG is not necessarily condoning their ideology, if you see it as being on the inside is better than being on the outside.
Mostly parents let their kids get on with things and don’t question it too much. You know better. If you maintain an open discussion with your DD about what she is doing at GG, then if anything comes up - you can discuss with the group leaders/daughters, mums.

You will have more credibility opposing something that’s actually happened or been said, than opposing before she’s even joined.

Is it fair to possibly put her in the midst of all this, torn/confused between two ideologies. Possibly not, but this is where you would need all you mothering skills to help her navigate.

It obviously depends on your daughters personality/ maturity etc.But I can think of no better gift a mother can give to a daughter than to question what others are asking of her and setting her own boundaries around her personal safety.

And don’t forget, if she joins and it’s all too much, as her mother you can make her leave.

I'd send her if she wants to go. BUT I would be checking as things go along. Keeping an eye on the leaders who hopefully are more girl orientated than social justice warriors (hopefully) and see what they're being taught. If it's gender woo woo the you unpick it with your daughter.
And if there are any residentials, that's when you make it very clear that you expect an assurance that the Guides will adhere to the guidance from the EHRC - ie no biological males of any age to be sharing sleeping, washing or toileting accommodation. Doesn't stop them being present - but preserves the girls rights to privacy, safety and dignity.

Can you get a feel for what’s going on from the other parents about the actual group dynamics? I tend to agree with pp above that our local one would be a fairly traditional unit that might have a quick ‘some people use pronouns and we should be tolerant to all’ every now and then. I doubt it would be an issue round here.

I do see it a the principal of the thing however.

• I mean, fucking no way to any overnight trips or sleepovers when it comes to Girlguiding, and I'd probably check out who's running the group, but other than that I favour immunising children to unscientific ideas rather than completely shielding them.

Yes, that's a dilemma, OP.

I think odds are likely our children are going to encounter genderwoo at some point. Can it be a useful object lesson in critical thinking? Maybe have a chat with her at some point about it? As an agnostic/non religious person, we've already done all this wrt Christian teaching/services at school, and sometimes we've had to discuss how teachers have taught things wrongly (I'm talking maths, here, not any ideological stance).

As children get older it will do no harm for them to learn (they will anyway) that teachers (and parents) are not infallible, that people in positions of authority can be and should be questioned, that it's important to listen to various views on a subject and do research and draw their own conclusions.