What is a Woman? Advert. The tide is truly turning...

You do understand that black women are also women? Telling women to shut up about the racist undertones is exactly why people then come on this board and wonder “why don’t black women say they’re feminists” as we had this weekend.

And this is also why the Trans movement uses black women to point out “black women are also seen as outside womanhood” to then pretend that they are the same as black women. It’s insulting but it’s also insulting to have people completely dismiss the idea that talking about race matters to women who also experience racism - from the same people selling you this watch and defending police shootings of black people.

Some posters could do with shutting up? That’s sounds a little #nodebate to me.

Surely posters are free to point out flaws in the advert and company, they don’t just have to blindly agree that anything surface level GC is good? Equally, posters are of course free to support the company and think the ad is good.

I do think some posters are a little naive about the religious far right in America, especially given how much power they have. But I’m aware a lot of things in America don’t translate well to be British context and vice versa.

As Spider said too, I’m skeptical about what charities are being donated to - what most of are think are pro women is very different to the American religious far rights idea of pro women. I did have a look around their site, the terms and conditions, and also their SM but couldn’t find any named charities. Which actually made me more suspicious that it was just a lie. Don’t suppose anyone was able to find the name of a charity being donated to? Especially those who bought a product, as it’ll be your money going somewhere potentially harmful.

you have no freaking idea what you’re talking about

Then don't come over here and tell us we're doing feminism wrong!

😒

America doesn’t have a grass roots, feminist movement like we do.

As an American woman who has been involved in grass roots feminist causes for the last 20+ years, bullshit. ‘Grass roots’ either means something very very different over there, or you have no freaking idea what you’re talking about.

We have grass roots feminist movements all over the fucking place, but you don’t see them because we ALSO have a long and storied history of being shot for being outspoken.

Hell, over on this side of the pond we have to worry about being shot for the high crime of existing in public, so we keep our heads low and don’t stand around shouting about what good works we are doing.

I have a whole rant just waiting, but it’s really not worth getting into with someone who seems to think that if they don’t see a thing being honked on about on the news then it must not exist.

When the court cases start piling up is when REAL push back on this nonsense will happen. I just hope that the damage already done by then won't be too much

Not all women are 'gender critical' in the way it's used on these boards.
I'm not.

I think gender roles are in general linked to biology, and the insistence that they are totally socially constructed, and that apart from biology women are exactly like men, and that the aim of feminism is not equal rights but equal outcomes is hugely damaging to women.

I think the strengths & essential roles of women (in general) are undervalued or ignored in feminism, or worse ridiculed & belittled, and I think this is making many women unhappy.

But I do agree biological sex is a reality no matter what gender role or interests you have, & women is the word for your sex not your personality.

I don't mind the media studies critique, but the suggestion that women who think like me or those who made the video, are anti women, and even people who agree we us that biological sex is reality, mustn't say they agree, as we disagree on some areas of feminism, so tiresome.

Something much more important than your narrow view of feminism is at stake here.

👏👏👏

Yes, some posters could do with shutting up and letting us enjoy the ride now that the tide is turning.

What does bother me is the hostility some are showing to the idea of providing any kind of critical media analysis.
Because we are finally getting some pushback and you are diluting the effect by squabbling.
At the moment, I don't care why they are backing women. I'm just glad that someone thinks that GC spending-power is worth pandering to. Let's bed this idea in first; you can dance on the head of a pin later.

Re: today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2021/09/23/americans-transgender-survey.

Interestingly, according to this poll, women are more likely to agree with transgender rights than men.

If this is true, I wonder if, ironically, this is perhaps because women are fulfilling their stereotypical role and are more kind and caring than men.

@User0610134049 · 20/04/2022 12:49

Does anyone know of any left wing Democratic Party aligned groups in the US who have concerns about trans ideology? Or is the issue split very much down party lines?
there much be some surely.
Like many here I’m really uncomfortable with concerns about trans ideology getting conflated with anti abortion and anti gay Republican religious right feeling over there

I think there are. I have found this. Perhaps you could get some idea from this.

In 2021, where do Americans stand on transgender rights? | YouGov

today.yougov.com/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2021/09/23/americans-transgender-survey

I don’t think the concern here is whether people want to buy a necklace or watch, that’s nobody’s business but your own.

What does bother me is the hostility some are showing to the idea of providing any kind of critical media analysis. I want to remind people that it is largely feminists who taught us how to analyze media/advertising for sexist messaging, and when women started pointing out how ads sent constant messages about male power/rape culture/beauty myths etc., it was considered hysterical and “it’s just an ad,” and “you’re reading too much into it,” and “get a life, aren’t there more important things,” and “you sound like a man hater,” etc. The idea that any ad should be uncritically absorbed without thinking about political context, and that to point out what the narratives are in an ad about race/stereotypes/the current political climate etc., is somehow offside and that those doing so are “TRAs” really goes against a whole feminist history of understanding media and images.

People can disagree on how this ad is interpreted, but surely it’s not unreasonable to apply some kind of critical lens. It’s not “purity spirals” to do so.

Does anyone know of any left wing Democratic Party aligned groups in the US who have concerns about trans ideology? Or is the issue split very much down party lines?
there much be some surely.
Like many here I’m really uncomfortable with concerns about trans ideology getting conflated with anti abortion and anti gay Republican religious right feeling over there

While it’s great to see an advert celebrating women’s historical achievements and speaking out against the self-ID nonsense, the advert frames womanhood in stereotypes.

I’m suspicious which ‘women’s charities’ they support, as this reads a lot more pro-life, anti-black than progressive. But I don’t always pick up on US contexts.

Still nice to see womanhood acknowledged, though.

The TRAs are having a field day on twitter with this picture

And that's without starting on the racism - the first image of a black woman in that video is a negative one. The fact that the couldn't show Serena Williams or Simone Biles as an example of female sporting achievement tells you a lot about where this is coming from politically.

These people are not interested in women's rights, and they are also not interested in the rights of other oppressed classes. This is all about maintaining a status quo in which chaste, caring, feminine white women are held up as the pure ideal of womanhood' and other women despised. In other words - the exact same status quo that feminists should stand against. Women don't win under that status quo, not even the ones who meet the impossible standard.

These people do not have your back.

I'm also interested to hear how this advert aligns with gender critical views.

All I see is the same old gender stereotyping (sacred caregiver! feminity on a pedestal!) that I've been fighting against for years now.

Can any of the women on this thread who love the advert explain to me, please, what you think the words "Gender Critical" mean?

Yet again, the choice isn't to be either a conservative or a gender ideologue. Feminists are neither.

Long story short I’m the type of feminist the American religious far right hate.

So you support men in women's sports and and safe spaces?

OK 😒

Not sure how you got that from my post...

I’m the “type of feminist” that think women (and men) should be able to stay at home WITH RIGHTS, not be forced to. I’m type of feminist who is pro choice. I’m the type of feminist who thinks women are just as capable of having successful careers as men are, but also aware of the obstacles they must overcome to achieve this compared to men. I’m the type of feminist that thinks there is no one way to be a women (and in that I don’t mean self ID etc, but that I think there is a lot more to womanhood than the traditional role this advert implies e.g a butch lesbian woman more interested in a career than kids is just as much a woman as the most stereotypical traditional woman ever)

Long story short I’m the type of feminist the American religious far right hate.

Unless your idea of a women’s safe space is at home with 0 rights

Yuk!
So you're one of those women who think you can't be a stay at home mum and a feminist?

Trust me that is not what the religious right in America are interested in.

Unless your idea of a women’s safe space is at home with 0 rights.

Youre putting yourself into a dangerous crowd if that is the only criteria required for your support.

Are you aware of the religious right in America - what they stand for and how powerful they are?

Anyone who seeks to preserve women and girl's safe spaces is alright by me 👍

Frog's hair

I love it! 🤣🤣🤣

Can you see how people who push the idea that women are "a feminine force of nature" might have a problem with butch women?

Are you aware of the religious right in America - what they stand for and how powerful they are?