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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Monsoon

252 replies

Awkwardy · 12/04/2022 11:01

Oh, I'm so bored.

Here they go... twitter.com/MonsoonUK/status/1513811068686155778?s=20&t=zQnlx9T5PprC0S2v-ECHxQ

Another one off the list. Who do they think spends lots of money with them?

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nepeta · 13/04/2022 15:36

@RaspberryChouxBuns

Not sure if this warrants a thread or whether I can just piggyback on this, but can someone explain to me why transgenderism ( ? ) is a feminist topic? Not necessarily in terms of the sanctity of single sex spaces because that's quite an obvious one, but why transgender people expect feminists to help carry their cause and support it unconditionally?

I can understand that transgender people encounter ignorance, hate and discrimination but why in this case, does the perceived "discrimination" of one individual trump the security of all women who use these changing rooms. Surely rather than Monsoon wringing their hands promising an investigation, it'd just be better to change the returns policy so people can try at home and take it back if it doesn't suit - we know it's possible because we've seen it done during Covid!

I'm probably not making myself very clear, sorry. I'm a feminist and I have enjoyed single sex spaces for most of my life in the UK until I moved to a European country- they don't exist over here. There are no girls schools, no ladies only swimming hours, too few single sex toilets... I'm a Mum of three daughters and I miss these spaces, once you lose them they are gone forever.

Several reasons for that:

One is the odd expansion of the concept of intersectionality which in its original form is important, i.e., to address the fact that some women are not only discriminated against on the basis of sex but also on the basis of race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or class or age or disability, and that these types of oppression can work together in ways which is crucial to understand for feminist analysis.

Not understanding it runs the risk that our policies will only benefit those women who face the smallest amount of intersecting types of oppression.

What I mean by odd expansion of the intersectionality concept is that it is often now used to argue that feminists should also fix all other types of oppression, because they affect women, too.

If we go that route, then feminism must fix everything that is wrong with the world. The movement doesn't have the resources for that, and no other movement addresses sex-based oppression.

But this is why some argue that feminism should fight for all causes and perhaps not even prioritise the fight against sex-based mistreatment.

The second is the 'be kind' trend. It's easy to see on social media that women who refuse to 'be kind' in the doormat sense get truly vicious reactions from many while men who refuse to 'be kind' are not attacked in the same manner.

That's because women are expected to be kind and inclusive and to be mothers for everyone. Women are not allowed to have boundaries we set ourselves.

The third is linked on the above two: Once you accept them, then it is imperative to decide how to pick among victim groups when rights clash or when one marginalised group oppresses another marginalised group.

Some call this the oppression pyramid: Those most oppressed are on the top of the pyramid and they will be selected to be the group some types of feminism now will try to help, even if the group thus picked contains zero biological women or girls.

The way Laurie Penny, for one, wrote about the Cologne new year's eve 2015-16 mass sexual harassment is an example of what happens with this approach when it is carelessly used.

An even earlier example I saw had to do with how many who practise the new inclusive feminism couldn't process the fact that at one point black voters in California were instrumental in delaying same-sex marriage to be approved (i.e., one marginalised group had many of its members willing to vote against the interests of another marginalised group).

It seemed almost impossible for them to accept what happened, because their focus was not on the acts we disapprove, irrespective of which group is guilty of them, but on the identities of the groups themselves, ranked in some value sense.

The fourth is more specific to the transgender context and has to do with tying various causes together. Smaller movements often want to harness their issues to those of larger or more affluent movements, and this can be done very easily with feminism once we re-define 'woman' so that sex becomes invisible.

What that new kind of feminism fights for, once sex-based oppression cannot discussed is anybody's guess.

Wow. I did go on and on.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/04/2022 15:01

@DomesticatedZombie

Hm. Young male is asked to wait, can't handle it because of special status entitlement, publically sneers at staff member's appearance, age, race. And is rewarded for It? FFS
Yes. We must all bow to the young male gods.
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/04/2022 14:20

Oh no. I've always loved Monsoon, but now it's gone the way of my other mainstay, M&S. I'm going to end up buying all my clothes in charity shops at this rate!

Though actually, that wouldn't be a bad thing. A lot of my favourite clothes are from charity shops already.

VestofAbsurdity · 13/04/2022 13:51

@Helleofabore

So, have we had acknowledgement of the poster who has called out another poster on this thread for supposedly making an observation about the people they know, while seeming to miss the completely disgusting racist and disparaging remark made by the person they are supporting. While poster's can certainly 'fight' for their rights, it does need to be acknowledged that Charlie has made this disgusting comment if you (as a poster) are going to police other's comments in that way.

It does seem that at times, some posters forget the hypocrisy of their very own racist comments while pointing fingers at others as well.

Of course we haven't had acknowledgement Hellofabore, we never do. It seems there is a special select group of people and allies who can be misogynist, ageist, homophobic and racist and never be called to account for it.
Helleofabore · 13/04/2022 13:34

So, have we had acknowledgement of the poster who has called out another poster on this thread for supposedly making an observation about the people they know, while seeming to miss the completely disgusting racist and disparaging remark made by the person they are supporting. While poster's can certainly 'fight' for their rights, it does need to be acknowledged that Charlie has made this disgusting comment if you (as a poster) are going to police other's comments in that way.

It does seem that at times, some posters forget the hypocrisy of their very own racist comments while pointing fingers at others as well.

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/04/2022 12:38

@SushiShopSearch

He's just a grifter trying to raise his profile/money. His poor, poor family. What an embarrassment.
Yes.

In addition, judging from the pictures, Charlie is not someone who should be criticising anyone else's eyebrows.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/04/2022 12:20

It's interesting how often it happens that people who publicise their confrontations with small businesses or individual minimum-wage earning staff at large chains also have stagnant crowdfunders for hormone treatment or surgery.

viques · 13/04/2022 12:13

Well, at least one good thing has come out of this, Charlie’s gofundmepage, to raise money for his gender “affirming” fund which had completely stalled for nearly a month because frankly Charlie, no one gave a damn, has been galvanised into new life by the I’m Charlie And I Can’t Queue fracas. Who said publicity doesn’t pay, well done Charlie, are you planning a career in marketing by any chance?

Personally I am holding back on contributing, because I am of the cynical opinion that if Charlie is so unsure of their new gender that they need it “affirming” with hormones then I think there is a chance that in a couple of years Charlie will be back asking for de-affirming hormone money.

C4tintherug · 13/04/2022 11:50

I’m wondering how they knew that the shop assistant was a woman. I hope they didn’t presume their gender based on their birth sex?

Waitwhat23 · 13/04/2022 11:48

A couple of women have parodied the situation on Twitter and there is an amusing number of MRA's who clearly didn't see the original and don't understand what's being parodied saying 'that's so pathetic!!! All this just to get a free dress?!,'.

SushiShopSearch · 13/04/2022 11:45

He's just a grifter trying to raise his profile/money. His poor, poor family. What an embarrassment.

VestofAbsurdity · 13/04/2022 11:41

How will they know which hormones to buy once they have enough money to buy them?

Super special non-binary hormones that identify as neither one thing or the other, or maybe the identification part is in the gift of the buyer but that would surely mean that the super special hormones are not being validated in their specialness, dearie me.

AlisonDonut · 13/04/2022 11:34

@Helleofabore

I just read this again. So they is non-binary. But they is crowdfunding for hormones?
How will they know which hormones to buy once they have enough money to buy them?

It's a mystery.

EndaDay · 13/04/2022 11:26

#BoycottMonsoon

EndaDay · 13/04/2022 11:25

Let's make sure Zara has fewer customers to engage with!

SushiShopSearch · 13/04/2022 11:13

I got a response from Monsoon. Quelle surprise. They couldn't care less for women. Hope they go bust.

"Monsoon is committed to diversity and inclusivity and we want as many people as possible to enjoy our clothes and designs. At the same time, we also want to ensure that all our customers feel relaxed and comfortable when visiting our stores and trying on our outfits.

The majority of our stores are small with limited changing facilities and as such we endeavour to work with all our customers; considering each of their individual requirements, with the aim of accommodating their needs and wishes"

Signed by Zara Gentles, Customer Engagement Manager.

VestofAbsurdity · 13/04/2022 11:03

Yes. It is different. Charlie's behaviour is a hell of a lot worse. So why are you giving it a pass?

Any chance of a response to this GoodJanetBadJanet.?

Is there a special rule that white people who identify as trans are allowed to be derogatory about black women? To set them up for harassment?

Must be Potholes and how interesting that their allies can't hide their racism either.

LK1972 · 13/04/2022 10:59

Yes, Purgatory, it does appear that certain white male people are given a special dispensation to behave in appalling ways.

Sprinkle a bit of glitter and you can be somewhat racist whilst being lauded on Twitter. Or homophobic (see Monroe Bergdoff), or misogynist (see 'enjoy your erasure' Shon Faye).

It's almost like there's a sacred caste.

poorbuthappy · 13/04/2022 10:35

@Helleofabore

I just read this again. So they is non-binary. But they is crowdfunding for hormones?
Special non binary hormones?
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/04/2022 10:33

@GoodJanetBadJanet

,Or are you just going to have a go at the MNer who only has positive things to say about her experiences of older afro-Caribbean women? It was more the '' I've met old a Carribbean women and this is what they and their attitudes are like. '' Bit of a generalisation, what all? Seems a weird thing to say, it's not something you'd usually say about people just because you've met a couple. Different to a description of one person, even if it wasn't a complimentary one.
What made you think she's only met a couple of Afro-Caribbean women in her life? Are you perhaps projecting here? I've certainly met far more than a couple!

Explain to me why a positive generalisation is worse than a person making negative remarks about the appearance of an identifiable individual on the internet. Charlie did not have to answer that question from a randomer at all. The only reason another member of the public would need to ask that information is in order to identify the staff member, possibly to harass them. The only people who should have been getting a description of a the member of staff should have been Monsoon, in a private communication.

Yet, not only did Charlie give a description, Charlie expressed themselves disparagingly in the process.

This level of contempt makes me rather wonder how Charlie acted in store when there wasn't an audience.

Different to a description of one person, even if it wasn't a complimentary one

Yes. It is different. Charlie's behaviour is a hell of a lot worse. So why are you giving it a pass?

Is there a special rule that white people who identify as trans are allowed to be derogatory about black women? To set them up for harassment?

Helleofabore · 13/04/2022 10:27

I just read this again. So they is non-binary. But they is crowdfunding for hormones?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/04/2022 10:24

Like it or not, trans women are legally allowed to use them though.

There's no "legal right" for males to use female single sex changing rooms. It's up to the individual service provider to set the policy.

SolasAnla · 13/04/2022 10:19

@GoodJanetBadJanet

Not a female changing room, they don't have that right, being a male.

Like it or not, trans women are legally allowed to use them though.

Can you explain how a male has a legal right to use a female single sex service?
OvaHere · 13/04/2022 10:18

@valadon68

To be fair, there's nothing wrong with male people wanting to try on dresses. It's regressive to say that these are women's clothes only. It's a tricky one. Could an assistant not have supervised the changing rooms (assuming there were secure cubicles for everyone)? I guess easy to say and harder to implement if they don't have the staff.
There's not in theory but shops will have to be prepared for higher than average damages.

I once worked for a small indie shop that sold vintage style dresses, blouses etc. We had more than your average number of male customers because that type of clothing is popular in some circles.

Women's clothing is cut and sewn for women's bodies. You end up with a higher than average number of bust zips and ripped seams when male people try to fit into them.

Yes there's variation in body type amongst women but the wide backs and shoulders many male people have is an issue even if a fairly slim male sizes up to say a size 18. Female clothes sizing just doesn't correlate to male bodies.

This is because women's clothes aren't made to accommodate massive shoulders, even with weight gain our proportions in that area aren't the same as males.

Probably not an issue for a large chain with built in wastage. It was a bit for an indie shop with small margins.

EndaDay · 13/04/2022 10:17

Maybe we could make this weekend a DO NOT SHOP AT MONSOON WEEKEND.

Let them know that women hold the purse strings to their business and we are more powerful economically than any trans business.

A simple lesson in letting them know that the tail does not wag the dog.