Times on Sex Matters survey: 8 in 10 teachers say their secondary school has trans or non-binary pupils

Is the mechanism that parents must talk to governors about this?

If need be yes. To be clear, I mean for the purpose of making policy changes.

I am mindful, of course, of the teacher who is currently going forward to appeal an employment tribunal and the way that she was handled by a group of governors and colleagues (Higgs v Farmor's School) who sprung a disciplinary hearing on her with no notice, for 6 hours (ignoring her pleas that she needed to get home to feed her children) and with 6 v 1. (I'm opposed to those aspects of the disciplinary hearing.)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4510482-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-4?pg=26

Yes, I definitely think parents have significant power to change.

I do think part of the problem is that this relates to the teaching retention crisis. When I did my teacher training and nqt, a million years ago, the safeguarding training was very brief. It was inadequate.

Thankfully, I had an experienced mentor who led me through how to deal with my first safeguarding issues. One of which was year six children had found their parents YouTube and used it to browse porn. At the time, whilst I thought it was awful, I didn't realise it was child abuse and we had the power to further escalate it. Thankfully, having an experienced teacher to guide me I was able to follow the proper channels and retained that knowledge got the future.

But we have a lack of experienced teachers and mentors now due to the conditions in teaching being nigh on impossible. So new teachers don't get the wealth of knowledge and experience and rely on their own preconceptions, which as demonstrated elsewhere on this thread, can be naive, wrong or actively a safeguarding issue in themselves.

I'm not being ageist, btw, the mentor that actually taught me was young in herself. The point being that experience is not valued in education and no effort is being made to retain those staff.

And furthermore, often what you will find is that SLT are relatively inexperienced 'climbers' whose experience and knowledge is limited. I've been in teaching a long time, but I am not a climber, I stayed in a lowly position because I don't want to be a paper pusher out of the classroom etc, but the amount of times I've been overruled by someone I've known demonstrated more is numerous.

And sometimes, that has adverse effects for the children. A few times it's been really serious.

But each time the SLT finds someone lower down to pin blame on and the culture never shifts.

I'm sure it's not like this in all schools, my husband has a very different experience, although we both acknowledge his concerns get listened to more by virtue of his sex.

Anyway, rambling somewhat, but my point being this is another symptom of the crisis in teaching and it's awful that nothing will be done until children are collateral damage.

Thanks for answering WeDontTalkAboutYouKnow.

I think it is quite clear that if teachers don't have the power to make these changes, this pressure needs to keep coming from the parents. That pressure can be considered supportive or, as evidenced by some posts on this thread, not welcome. But either way, I will continue and I am sure many others will as well to keep pressure on our children's schools to make sure they are not letting our children down in this area.

Is it possible at all to work with the school if something is clearly against the Dept of Ed Sept 2020 guidance though?

Yes in theory and of course all schools do lip service to safeguarding.

However, not all schools are as robust in their attitudes as they should be. I actually left one international school because I raised concerns about a member of staff.

He was 'massaging' 9 year old boys in full view of another teachers class whilst they were meant to be learning. I saw him inviting children age 9 to sit on his lap (not normal to invite, 9 year olds will feel coerced at that age) amongst other things. He used to ignore my instructions to work with the pupils that needed support and instead gravitated towards the same boy, who happened to be shy and 'attractive'. I was very concerned and took it to senior staff.

I was told I was racist(it's a cultural thing) that I was homophobic(he was gay) even if those things were true, basic safeguarding rules should have meant they at least recorded my concerns. They never did. I was badly bullied and hounded with no way to report my concerns as all the safeguarding leads minimised my concerns. I quit because i couldn't keep children safe.

Now, yes this was abroad but all the staff that were involved had a wealth of experience in teaching in the UK.

Since then I have been ignored on several factors, from curriculum to behaviour, so I have little faith in bringing anything to my 'superiors' or in a slt who are captured following safeguarding procedure.

At least in the UK you have whistle blowing policies that you can go over the heads of such people, as I didn't have that abroad.

But my point being, safeguarding is only a good system if everyone abides by it without prejudice.

I have direct experience of my safeguarding concerns being brushed off because of a sacred caste. I feel a lot of guilt about leaving that school with that man still in place, but was absolutely powerless to stop it.

Personally I think if Ofsted spent more time on basic safeguarding responsibility instead of their current model it would be time well spent.

I heard a spokeswoman from NEU on Times Radio sounding very reasonable about policy to do with Transgender or Non binary pupils. There was no concrete evidence; just generally. Has there been a change of policy?

The school I teach in is very working class and has a great mix of different religions & ethnicities (even though we are a Catholic school). We currently have 1 NB pupil. From speaking to other colleagues in different schools and council areas, I do feel like trans/NB identities are more common in more affluent areas... just a personal opinion though.

Even in my school we have a couple of teacher that tried to push the anti-JKR narrative, both were shut down very shifty simply by being asked to highlight exactly where she said anything transphobic. And these were English teachers who you would think have some grasp of reading comprehension!

@WeDontTalkAboutYouKnow

It’s interesting to hear your perspective, because almost all of my colleagues are quite vocal about framing this issue as safeguarding. Ultimately, it trumps any ideology. I’m even able to (gently) challenge the children who shout down JKR or invoke transphobia at every turn (by giving them alternative perspectives, not by speaking my brains, teachers aren’t allowed to do that, obvs). It could be the age profile of the staff? We are mainly 35+ and parents ourselves, although younger colleagues are also on board, in the main.

We know as teachers that kids are easily swayed by the latest trend. In some cohorts (white, middle class girls, mainly), this has been trending for the past decade and I would say the next few years will see a decline (although I’m concerned about what will replace it). Prior to 2012, I met only one child in school who had socially transitioned, who had autism and other associated difficulties.

We have to lead on this, and we are supported in law.

I, and many others in education though, am silent because of the current climate of what happens to those that raise their heads above the parapet.

Is it possible at all to work with the school if something is clearly against the Dept of Ed Sept 2020 guidance though?

The ones I have spoken to about this all share my views(although they didn't realise having basic safeguarding responsibilities and common sense made them gc- they had no idea knowing sex matters was a radical opinion).

I know one person who I suspect supports this ideology in education. I'm basing this on the fact that they love Drag Race and called JK Rowling controversial and suggested my concern about a teen relative pursuing mastectomy was pearl clutching. (Roll my eyes hard, they have daughters) They're not in an area of education that requires much critical thinking though and certainly have shown they have huge gaps in other areas of safeguarding and pedagogy.

I, and many others in education though, am silent because of the current climate of what happens to those that raise their heads above the parapet.

The shouty be kind ones appear to be more numerous because they can shout their half baked ideas with impunity.

I would guess there are overall more teachers concerned than pushing it. However, there are a lot of people who don't give it space and just blondy spout bekind.

‘arriving on this thread like some early 20th century missionary, and displaying such naked contempt towards the experiences and concerns of parents.’

Proselytising, basically.

Just catching up with this thread and it is really is quite startling to see a teacher arriving on this thread like some early 20th century missionary, and displaying such naked contempt towards the experiences and concerns of parents.

Not typical of the profession I am sure but even so.

Look at your recasting of perspectives and distortion of vocabulary when you summarise the responses of posters on this thread. Look at Lifton's 8 Criteria for Thought Reform and question your responses in light of them. Consider how readily, as per the Havel quotation, you so readily abdicated responsibility for the material you're teaching.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

It is painful when this happens. It's like realising that you have not just one set of scales on your eyes but layer upon layer of them.

This other thread could also be quite relevant to this one.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4526569-This-charity-is-delivering-sex-education-in-schools

Most teachers aren't activists, they just haven't thought it through and have accepted everything they have been told they 'should' think and teach on surface level.

Yes. But most teachers did not come onto a thread and start discussing Section 28 and making false comparisons, tell parents that they are conspiracy theorist and offensive. Or liars.

And also mention a parent who seemed to be getting into abusive territory with their child as another comparison to what parents are like when they try to discuss teaching around this issue with schools and their concerns around schools social transitioning their children.

All the while implying that parents discussing this issue are ignorant haters.

Because that is what has happened here on this thread.

I can readily believe that most teachers don't know about this stuff, but then most teachers aren't coming on here and telling off the women who do.

‘Most teachers aren't activists, they just haven't thought it through and have accepted everything they have been told they 'should' think and teach on surface level.’

When I taught teachers were constantly nitpicking things they were instructed to teach. I never had a single colleague tell me men could literally become women. This stuff was just creeping into schools. I think teachers are cowed by worrying about losing their jobs, and intervention by the DfE will be an enormous relief.

"You've even tried to invoke section 28!

Only in the sense that I disagree with trans issues being ignored as this obviously impacts trans pupils in schools, who do exist as this whole thread attests.

No one is denying children and teens are declaring trans identities. No one. And you have not provided any evidence that they are being ignored at all. You have attempted to misrepresent posts on this thread by invoking it though.

Again I would refute that teaching about trans issues would cause someone to become trans. From what posters here have said if you do you are by default a trans activist. I find it hard to believe that schools teaching about trans issues is the root cause of the trans pupils issues.

No. However, teaching 'trans issues' can cause distress and harm to very young children when they are led to believe that a) they are in the wrong body and can change 'sex'. and b) they are also taught to accept people's identities as 'being the same as' some one of the opposite sex. So, being taught that a transitioned male is 'exactly like' a female. And lowering boundaries.

And again I will get slated for this too but does yelling people about homosexuality make it more likely they become gay or just make them and others more accepting of who they are?

Please copy and paste any posters who have said this. Because let's have that discussion otherwise. Otherwise, it really seems it is YOU feeding in your preconceptions of posters on this board into your posts. I believe that is a tactic called 'straw manning'.

I see teaching trans issues as a similar situation . If there was definitive evidence it was systematically harmful then it wouldn't be happening would it?

Well... let's go through this. How long has it been taught in schools? Primary? Secondary?

Have you actually read the interim report from Dr Hilary Cass at all? Because she has come out and said to the world at large what we have been saying on this board for years. The impact of 'affirming only' treatment and practices will not be properly able to be assessed for around another 5 years.

In the meantime, it is actually valid for parents to ask to what degree is teaching children and teens that people can change sex (by confusing children about what sex and gender is, and lack of being actually able to clearly define gender).

And don't forget, it was parents and concerned groups that got the current guidance changed to remove that very harmful concept of being 'born in the wrong body'. No school is allowed to teach that.

So, are you prepared to keep teaching materials that parents are raising valid concerns about and supporting the social transitioning of children without their parents knowledge, knowing that parents are saying harm is being caused and that it will be another five years to see the extent of what is actually occurring in the schools (you are being told what is happening in schools other than your own)?

The fact is most teachers haven't heard of Keira Bell or Dr David Bell, or Sonia Appleby. Most teachers are still at the point of 'be kind' and think being trans is just the same as being gay. Most haven't thought beyond that. In that sense I agree with Walksen. Most teachers aren't activists, they just haven't thought it through and have accepted everything they have been told they 'should' think and teach on surface level.

If there was definitive evidence it was systematically harmful then it wouldn't be happening would it?

For fuck's sake. Have you not even heard of Keira Bell? Who took the Tavistock to judicial review?

Or David Bell? No relation to Keira, but on the board of the Tavistock? Who has whistleblown and talked long and passionately about what they're doing to children?

www.google.com/amp/s/theparadise.ng/tavistock-gender-clinic-not-safe-for-children-nhs-report-finds/amp/

The Tavistock clinic, run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, England’s lone specialist clinic for children and youths who are confused about their gender, was found to be performing services that are “not safe or viable,”

Again I would refute that teaching about trans issues would cause someone to become trans.

What do you mean by 'become trans?'

Thousands of young women think they're men, because either they fancy women, or they're gender nonconforming, or guess what, they're a bit masculine.

If you're a supply teacher, surely to God, you've heard of the pro ana sites, which promotes anorexia? You've heard of the social contagion involved in self harming?

What do you actually mean by become trans? Make someone have gender dysphoria?

A young woman was writing her narrative about wanting to have bottom surgery.

She didn't have it. And turns out, she finally realised it's because her father had been raping her and she wanted to remove the part of her anatomy that he had been using.

Is she 'trans'?

How do you account for the statistic that 30% of the children showing up at gender clinics are autistic? Are they all 'trans'?

Strewth.

‘And again I will get slated for this too but does yelling people about homosexuality make it more likely they become gay or just make them and others more accepting of who they are?’

Begging the question. Some people are gay and we know this isn’t a choice and is - as far as we know - innate.

We don’t know anything of the kind about gender identity. We know, in fact, that about 85% of adolescents who present to hospitals with gender dysphoria (so quite a high bar) will not be transgender adults.

So basically, what are you on about?

walksen

Did you know that children's identity clinics have seen a 4000% increase in referrals in the last few years? Did you know that the overwhelming majority of these are girls? Did you know that the Tavistock had 35 clinicians resign in short space of time because they were so worried about what they were doing to children? Particularly whether they were, transing away the gay?

Once you realise this is being taught in schools, by people like yourself, who believe men can be lesbians, isn't your conscience even a tiny bit pricked?

"You've even tried to invoke section 28!

Only in the sense that I disagree with trans issues being ignored as this obviously impacts trans pupils in schools, who do exist as this whole thread attests.

Again I would refute that teaching about trans issues would cause someone to become trans. From what posters here have said if you do you are by default a trans activist. I find it hard to believe that schools teaching about trans issues is the root cause of the trans pupils issues.

And again I will get slated for this too but does yelling people about homosexuality make it more likely they become gay or just make them and others more accepting of who they are?

I see teaching trans issues as a similar situation . If there was definitive evidence it was systematically harmful then it wouldn't be happening would it?