Why do Labour women make this so much worse than it need be?

What "great works" are there for any political party in the modern context? We already have a state healthcare system. We already have state schools.

There's plenty of stuff that needs reform, for sure. Policing and courts are a great example. We already have them, and they definitely need to be better, but that's not the same as creating them from scratch.

If we look back to Labour's last stint in government, what were their great works? Scottish devolution has been an absolute joke. PFI is a national albatross. All these bright ideas that have since transpired to be bloody awful.

When politicians tell you they have a big plan, you should run a mile. Doubly so if that politician is Jeremy Corbyn. Because "big plans" in the modern context start with viciously hacking apart whatever system we already have in place.

And after hearing dozens of the plans that start with "burn it all down, then rebuild" it does make you wonder if these people care more about burning stuff down. There's a certain kind of insanity that comes from a belief in Year Zero and the New Man.

Again, I'm not a Tory. I won't defend them on anything, because I don't agree with most of what they do. But we need to make sane, gradual steps to improve what we already have.

MackersonThe Conservative party have been the leading party for the last 12 years. What great and amazing things do you think they have done, that no other party could have at least managed to do

JC544D You posted this comment having previously said

The Conservative party have been the leading party, running the country for the last 12 years. If you have any questions about the running of the country for the last 12 years, address it to them, as they have been the people in charge, making the rules.

Why don’t you take your own advice?

Mackerson

The Conservative party have been the leading party for the last 12 years.

What great and amazing things do you think they have done, that no other party could have at least managed to do?

Politically am centre/right of centre. People on both left and right disagree with me - that's fine. I believe many on left are naive, perhaps a bit ignorant of world outside public sector/services (teaching, NHS, academia, civil service) but have good intentions.

Conversely, many on left (at least in social media) seem to think not that I am bit misguided in political beliefs but that am simply evil. No acknowledgement of fact that two reasonable people can look at same evidence and draw diff. conclusions. But agree with PP - this is not about Labour women; Labour men take same approach.

People on right generally protective of family, because reams of research shows strong family is basis for better outcomes for children and healthy society, thus those on right have taken active role in asserting primacy of biological sex over gender.

People on left caught in philosophical cleft stick. Have sneered for decades at "traditional" family due to overtones of patriarchy / repression, but now biological womanhood being positioned as "tradition" that needs to be overturned by activists. "On wrong side of history!" they warn. If trad family, trad marriage, trad womanhood roles can be overturned, why not also "traditional" sex roles? Becomes difficult argument to counter for those on left: sacrificed everything else, why not this? Pressure to appear consistent very strong.

Personally disagree strongly with trans argument. If men want to wear women's clothes (or vice versa), let them, be kind to them. But don't let them change society for worse in pursuit of (illusory) comfort, or let them destroy what space women have won. Me, have no daughters, but fear for the future of women if trend of trans activism not reversed. Think this is the attitude in wider population as well.

Son reading 1984 at moment. Again and again come back to Orwell's words: "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Trans activists are telling us to reject evidence of eyes & ears. Will not end well.

when I say the tories are scum I am talking about tories, mogg, johnson etc.

if your a voter who gets offended I would be looking at myself hard in the mirror and asking why I identify as a tory?

Thank you @VelvetChairGirl. You illustrate my point perfectly. You are a left wing woman who abuses Conservative voters and politicians by calling them scum. You speak without nuance, moderation or qualification.
And like all abusers, whether it be in a domestic situation or a wider setting, you believe that your insults and denigration are perfectly acceptable because the abused brought it on themselves by failing to check their language and behaviour to suit your ideas and beliefs.
Why not dare to broaden your horizons and engage with people who have different ideas and philosophies rather than shut them down.

It's so tiresome to see the same person who says they are so supportive of bodily autonomy and consent to then turn around and call you a stupid fucking bitch for saying that you don't want to have sex with a transperson.

All that the left needed to do on the TWAW issue was say "A woman is an adult human female, but transpeople still deserve respect and support". But instead they go with the constant screaming. As if that will convince anyone.

The Conservative party have been the leading party, running the country for the last 12 years. If you have any questions about the running of the country for the last 12 years, address it to them, as they have been the people in charge, making the rules.

"I'd rather be woke than an ignorant fucking retard"

They use the r word in a sentence where they describe themselves as woke?

Satire surely?

I know just what you mean, OP, and it's so frustrating. I don't think it's just the women. I was in the LP for a bit. I finally left over Cervixgate but long before then I'd got really hacked off with fellow comrades who referred to people who slightly disagreed with them as "the Right" with venom.
There are a couple of (male) friends of mine on FB who regularly post things like "I'd rather be woke than an ignorant fucking retard" etc etc. I think that the venom of lefties for those with whom they disagree is their current Achilles heel. To win elections you have to come across as likeable, and you don't if you're bashing your fellow party members over the head all the time.

claiming your a tory or more exactly taken affront at people insulting tories is stupid

Velvetchair you are calling the poster ‘stupid’ here, not Tory politicians.

Doesn't look very right wing, does he ?

Not from where I'm sitting but maybe he identifies as right wing

www.opensocietyfoundations.org/who-we-are

This conversation is very much needed. Online politics, at least, are now extremely tribal and some secular political issues are treated as if they part of the religious tenet of some church and as if questioning those tenets can only be declared as blasphemy (#nodebate).

But I do wonder if there isn't something about the human psyche which attracts us into that all-or-nothing framework (rooting for one's party in the same manner as one might root for a football team).

"I would call myself a social democrat. I'm not an economic or social radical, I just want good public services, and I want women's rights protected and respected."

That's pretty much my position, @JennyPourQuoi.

I too had hopes of the Women's Equality Party - not because I thought there was a reasonable chance that it would establish a national reach big enough to challenge the two big parties but because I thought it might act as an effective ginger group in terms of women's issues.

What a disappointment the WEP turned out to be.

My first question of any political party now is quite simply: "What is your definition of 'woman'?" Any answer other than "adult human female, no ifs or buts" and the manifesto goes straight in the bin. I will not vote for any party that ignores my sex.

And meanwhile, the fact that Labour, LibDems, Greens, SNP are fully behind the TWAW agenda means that once again, women in this country are being denied real political choice.

I have had a similar experience to @TedsFederationRep - I am not really a Tory in terms of my politics, but I am a party member because I live in a very safe Tory seat (about 60% at the last election) and being a member gives me the chance to make clear how much this stuff means to me.

The thing is that there really is no other party that seems to want me. I would call myself a social democrat. I'm not an economic or social radical, I just want good public services, and I want women's rights protected and respected.

Labour (and anyone else on the Left) seems unwilling to negotiate on women's rights. They are TWAW and if you think otherwise you are not welcome. The Tories aren't great on public services but they are at least open to it, and seem to be listening about women being a real thing.

I flatly refuse to have zero representation at all, simply because no party really aligns with what I want. The only other places that are listening about trans issues are way further to the right, and I don't agree with Lawrence Fox about anything else.

Most frustratingly, we live in a time where the Women's Equality Party hounded out one of their own spokeswomen for suggesting that society shouldn't transition children. The same party desperately tries not to address the trans issue, while also arguing that transwomen face discrimination because they are women. The Women's Equality Party thinks that me, a woman, trying to exclude a man from the ladies' loo is an act of misogyny. How can I be a political feminist when the feminist party is presently fighting for equality for men in dresses?

But yes, George Soros is definitely left wing.

Thanks for the confirmation. I often see left leaning posters on MN make assertions about the political leanings of someone they don't agree with and then I have to go and check what I thought I knew.

Perhaps OP should tell her friend she is mistaken.

I pretty sure I made myself clear, imo a tory is someone who is paid member of the conservative party.

your a voter, why are you acting like its a football team your supporting?

saying your a socialist or capitalist is fine, thats not the same, you might vote for any number of parties that support your views that are either socialist or capitalist.

claiming your a tory or more exactly taken affront at people insulting tories is stupid, as I said before johnson wouldnt piss on you if you was on fire, if they bulldozed all the houses on your road to build a motorway do you think they'd care how any of the residents had voted?

no of course they wouldnt so why are you counting yourself as one of them? when I start talking about my political leanings I say I am a socialist or I am a lefty, I dont say I am the Labour party, I have voted for them more often then not, but I have also not voted for them, like now under starmer I wont touch them and I didnt vote for blair either, because I'm a socialist.

I am not 'stupid' VelvetChairGirl, nor did I say that I am a Tory - you may wish to read my post again for clarification.

My post simply stated that I found name slinging, much like calling people 'stupid', to be unhelpful whatever political or ideological position people fling their insults from.

That's weird because I thought all the right wing conspiracies were anti Soros

And I do admire anyone staying in their respective parties and trying to affect change from the inside. Massive respect to you all.

But yes, George Soros is definitely left wing.

She's explained at length that Unherd is funded by George Soros and other ultra-right US

As far as I can tell George Soros donates to the Democratic Party and any campaign which opposes the republicans.